Nanny state

Bill Henry · Post by **Bill Henry** » Tue 03 Jul, 2007 7:42 pm

The State of New Hampshire by almost every standard is very conservative. We pay our legislators only $200/ year so they don’t spend a whole lot of time thinking up “nanny” type laws. Most need to get back in the real world and earn a living.

As a result there are no mandatory seat belt laws (except for kids under 16) nor are there any helmet laws for motorcyclists. Car insurance is also not mandatory (although if you finance your automobile, the lender can insist on it).

I wouldn’t think of allowing smoking in my shop, but I think it should be my decision, not the gum’mints! There is a glazer with whom I deal frequently. He allows smoking in his shop; that’s his decision. I can choose to patronize his shop or not; that’s my decision.

If I were a restauranteur or bar owner, I would choose not to allow smoking – merely for financial reasons. It must cost a fortune to ventilate and filter the hazy air and clean the stained walls and ceilings. But, again, it should be my right as a business owner to make that decision. If I lose customers because they want to smoke, so what? Let them go somewhere else.

I smoke two cigarettes a day (just to irritate my wife), but when we dine out, it is always in a smoke free environment. Like others have said, food tastes better without nicotine covering our steaks. But, if we both smoked, I think it should be our right to be able to enter a restaurant that allows it. So far, we still could.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 03 Jul, 2007 8:08 pm

Bill Henry wrote:
I smoke two cigarettes a day

My wife is down to about that - plus about another 38 a night!

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Mon 09 Jul, 2007 6:53 am

Before the Nanny state was a glint in officialdoms eye, I for one was a smoker; well say five a day, if that counts. More a social pastime than a nicotine fuelled habit.

Nostalgia brings back memories of sitting in coffee bars, the ones with glass cups of frothy coffee on which we would float brown sugar on top; light up menthol or exotic cigarettes like Consulate, Air France, Gitanes or Gauloises. The girls always had the Turkish ones with the pastel coloured papers.

Real left bank stuff - happy days.

I couldn't smoke now to save my life; hate the stink; but smoking seems to be on the increase, despite all the warnings and dire consequences.

If someone is smoking on the street, the smoke still drifts into the gallery on summer days when the door is open; NS notice or not.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Mon 09 Jul, 2007 2:36 pm

foxyframer wrote:Nostalgia brings back memories of sitting in coffee bars....

.... or the pretty wisps in the projection beam at the cinema. It was wonderfully atmospheric. Maybe they should release little bursts of dry ice nowadays to mimic the effect?

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 1:49 am

Framing Goddess from The Grumble has a quotation from Arnold Toynbee, historian(1889-1975) as part of her signature.

"Civilizations in decline are consistently characterised by a tendency towards standardization and uniformity."

Ring any bells?

What I find curious about this is the difference between governmental tack and the approach taken by both nature and corporate product development /marketing. In both systems, diversification is king.

Realistically, corporates are the most economically successful entities of our age. IMO, governments behave like corporate middle management (the ones who have been "promoted to the level of their own incompetence," as the saying goes.) I find the paradox both curious and puzzling.

Still trying to get over the UK legal requirement for "No Smoking" signs in places of worship.* It has been niggling at me since I read about it in this thread. I was raised a cradle Catholic (more 'spiritual' than 'religious' these days). Any time I ever set foot in a church, I never once saw anyone light up! Is is just me, or is such a legal requirement crazy-making? I feel like John did about seatbelts (e.g. go into a church and smoke a fag for spite?) ...

<more of a rictus than a smile>

(* For the record, I have no idea whether or not this is a legal requirement in the Republic of Ireland. Too busy paying bills to check it out. I don't have any such sign. If it is a requirement, they can come and slap my wrists. )

Bill Henry wrote:We pay our legislators only $200/ year so they don’t spend a whole lot of time thinking up “nanny” type laws. Most need to get back in the real world and earn a living.

This comment really hit home with me, Bill! The UK "No Smoking in Churches" mentality - to me - smacks of someone who hasn't got enough to do, and for whom there is no financial (and hence survival) benefit in demonstrating Common Sense (that very rare commodity!) <sigh>

Bill, I would be interested in learning more about New Hampshire's local government structure. It sounds like an "acorn" of an approach (Welcome to send PM links if you wish!).

Sorry for spouting again, folks, but this "Nanny" thang really gets my dander up!

I think that's why I like this forum so much, and why I'm glad I chose framing as a new means of earning a living. Oases of sense in a progressively daft world...

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 7:02 am

A local superstore in our area has just built a smoking shelter, with two enclosed sides, smart bucket seats, ashtray stands in each corner and one in the centre for those who just can't lean over that far.

Smartest construction I have seen in a long time but doesn't stop the smoke curling round the passersby.

Certainly puts the aforesaid bus shelters to shame.

Post by **John** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 9:20 am

Áine,

You're heartless!

I was doing quite well for a while there, even started to think that maybe I could begin to reduce my medication.

The chances are that the Irish legislation does require that signs should be on display within all buildings where the public has access. Perhaps the health and safety officials decided not to actively pursue strict adherence to prevent a backlash, or maybe they just have a bit more common sense than their British cousins.

Now that this precedent has been established, where is it all going to end. Will we be required to cover our premises with signs warning us against other illegal acts.

Perhaps they could be sized by importance, starting with the large and bold NO MURDERING, and NO RAPING, through NO STOMPING ON NEWBORN KITTENS,all the way down to a tiny NO LITTERING. And the tiniest of all: NO KICKING THE CRAP OUT OF THOSE WHO INSIST ON NO SMOKING SIGNS EVERYWHERE, EVEN IN A CHURCH FOR GODS SAKE.

Must end, I see the nurses coming...

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 3:49 pm

That "hug me" jacket looks very fetching on you, John!!

Edited to add:

Signs I am in favour of:

NO F***IN' COMMITTEES!!!!!!

and

You Are Now Entering a Jobsworth-Free Zone!

Dang!!! Now I'm wound up again about the bus shelters.......

Post by **prospero** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 5:54 pm

Bill Henry · Post by **Bill Henry** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 6:50 pm

Moglet wrote: Bill, I would be interested in learning more about New Hampshire's local government structure. It sounds like an "acorn" of an approach (Welcome to send PM links if you wish!).

Maybe tough in twenty-five words or less, but …

The New Hampshire state legislature is one of the largest assemblies in the world, I think. The House of Representatives has 600 plus members – one or more of whom directly represents each city and town. Perhaps, their sheer numbers helps contribute to their inability to pass stupid laws.

Since there are no state income or sales taxes, (nearly) all of the revenues generated for public services come from local real estate taxes (which tend to be a bit higher than the national average). But, each request for moneys (like for schools, police, local roads, etc. – indeed, the real estate tax rate, too) needs to go through a budget review process which, by law, has to be discussed openly in an annual town meeting. Each registered voter can attend and vote at the meeting. (They can be a lot of fun when people are yelling and screaming at each other! My wife and I often take snacks with us to the auditorium). It is at this meeting that silly stuff like pet leash laws, prohibiting kids from skateboarding on the sidewalks, etc., are voted upon.

If a request for a “nonsmoking” ordinance came up, it would have to go through the same voting process. Our state motto is “Live Free or Die”. It is very unlikely that such an ordinance would ever pass. If it did, the police would probably never enforce it – all of the twelve cops in town smoke, I think.

If the budget is passed by the voters at the meeting, the budget request is then placed on the ballot at the next November election. Since all requests for money comes directly from local taxes, and since most are pocket book issues, the majority of such requests are defeated. We’re cheap! For example, there is no town garbage pickup. You may either take your refuse to the town dump, or pay someone to haul it away for you for $1.50/ week – probably a whole lot cheaper than if the gum’mint did it.

Because of local control, we tend to have pretty good schools. But, when the school committee recommends ridiculous stuff (like an electronic sign in the school cafeteria), they usually get axed from the budget by us townies.

Anyone can discuss anything at these town meeting. It’s a very interesting, hands on approach to government.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 6:51 pm

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 8:01 pm

Says it all, Prospero!

Bill Henry wrote:It’s a very interesting, hands on approach to government.

Wow! Thanks for the synopsis, Bill. New Hampshire may just be the last bastion of true democracy! Your State Motto's spot-on, and I think it's wonderful that you guys are living according to its tenets.

My impression of local "gum'mint" (love that!) over here is that there's a lot of flesh-pressing and mutual backscratching, but precious little else. I think it's great that your representatives are so directly accountable to you; and regularly! When can you roll your system out to the rest of the world, Bill? As you can see from this thread, it's sorely needed. IMO, it's a sorry state of affairs that a bunch of Brussels-based bureaucrats made all of Napoleon's dreams come true - and eroded so many of our civil liberties - without firing a single shot...<insert "despairing" emoticon here>

Robo, it's so long since I travelled by 125: is that sign for real?

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 8:24 pm

John,

It's a miracle that there was enough room on the platform edge for the photographer to take that photo!

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 8:37 pm

Over here Bill we vote our representatives in and that is that, local and central. Once in power they have the whip-hand on all decisions and make it up as they go along - until the time comes to vote for the other lot.

Your local government is far more civilized - power to the people- no bullshit stood for.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 9:13 pm

Aine mentioned the fall towards uniformity and conforming.

Maybe I spotted an example this morning approaching central island repairs on a dual carriageway - 800 yards to roadworks; cars move to the left, holding up the traffic as they slow to filter in. 600 yards ditto. Rest of outside lane is completely clear as everyone has crawled to a snails pace to my left.

What is it, that will not allow them to drive to the end and then filter in, in turn. Fear of being a maverick, or being the odd one out.

Is it me, or have I got it all wrong.

Anyone else noticed this phenomena.

Please do not apologize Aine for your superb use of the English language; it is very rich and descriptive and should be made full use of.

Many on this forum air their views in such a way as to be really entertaining and informative.

Foxy

dottad · Post by **dottad** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 9:31 pm

who will pick up the tab when the government 'seem to' get what they want in stopping all us smokers smoking? They only look like they want to look after our health because if everyone had to stop smoking then ALL taxpayers would have to pick up the tab for the revenue that the government have lost from the smokers!!!

or something like that.
I smoke and as Health & safety person at my workplace have to enforce no smoking - yeh! No smoking in the vans - yes, while your not looking. But as I'm sure you will have seen for yourself, most vans have someone smoking in them - carriers being probably the worse offenders. So will it stop - I think not.
I spoke to a long distance lorry driver a few months ago and his comment was that although its his place of work it is also his home as he does long haul and therefore sleeps, eats etc in the unit - so he is still smoking and stuff anyone who wants to do something about it.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 9:39 pm

Moglet wrote:
Robo, it's so long since I travelled by 125: is that sign for real?

I think it was - but if it was I doubt if it's still there - it was blasted all over the interweb quite a few years ago.

Could have been shopped I suppose - I mean think of the process - someone has to think the wordology up - someone has to make the sign and someone has to fix it in place - how many people would have been involved from conception to fixing in place - surely someone would have said 'Uh oh'?

On signs - I once, whilst driving through Bavaria, almost totalled my car when I entered the village of 'Vank' (That's how it's pronounced - not spelt!!!)

Post by **prospero** » Sat 14 Jul, 2007 12:19 am

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 14 Jul, 2007 1:42 am

On signs:

Haven't got a picture of this, but back in the 70's when London and Capital Radio were mutually besotted with each other (and quite rightly - good times), the late Kenny Everett made a mini documentary about how the music got from the stylus (remember them?) via the transmitter to one's tranny (not the cross-dressing variety!). On the way back into London, he spotted a sign in a field that read:

"Custard Christians Get Upset Over Trifles."

(No religious disrespect, btw).

Also, one afternoon when driving through Limerick, I was highly amused to see someone had tethered their pony to a "No Parking" sign. A classic "wish-I-had-a-camera" moment! (Limerick parking wardens were the spawn of Satan.

)

dottad wrote:No smoking in the vans.... most vans have someone smoking in them ...will it stop - I think not.

Same here. Also, people here are still using their mobile phones "hands-on" with gay abandon.

foxyframer wrote:800 yards to roadworks; cars move to the left ... Rest of outside lane is completely clear...Is it me...

Nope! I think this phenomenon exists for two reasons:

1. The "sheep" mentality: unquestioningly following what the majority is doing (possibly too afraid/lazy/conditioned/all-of-the-above to think for themselves?)

2. The (fairly reasonable) fear of being carved up by one of those people who, based on their behaviour, seem to believe that the mere act of sitting behind the wheel of a motor vehicle automatically bestows upon them some divine right to aggressively vent their own petty frustrations on complete strangers.

Me? I look for a gap as close to the roadworks as possible then make for it like a thing possessed!!!

Thankyou for your kind words about "use of English," Foxy. Appreciated!

One of my English teachers once said to us, "Limit your vocabulary, and you limit your thoughts, as you will not have sufficient words at your command to formulate them." If this is true (and I believe it to be so), then it doesn't augur well for the BeBo / SMS generation, IMO. The way they "just soooooo" abuse the gift of language is doubleplusungood. If he were alive, I bet Mr Orwell would be "just lovin' it".

What depresses me most is that I think it has reached critical mass. Have we passed "Peak Education"? According to the statistics, the "youth of today" are getting better grades than ever before, but I personally don't see any evidence of the application of the learning. A friend of mine who, as a mature student, took a multimedia course recently was horrified at all of the younger students' behaviour: they seemed to have a desperate need to conform and to avoid anything resembling dissent within their group. Maybe I should have taken Gerald Scarfe's "mincing machine" more seriously...

foxyframer wrote:Once in power they have the whip-hand ...

... and boy do they know how to use it.

Here are a couple of quotations that, to me, mirror the contrast between New Hampshire's approach to government versus the EC's: see if you can spot which way round they go!

The first is from Thomas Jefferson:

"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."

The second is from Dorothy Thompson (political journalist and opponent of Hitler and the Fascist movement in 1930's Germany):

"When liberty is taken away by force, it can be restored by force. When liberty is relinquished voluntarily, by default, it can never be recovered."

I don't believe that we are relinquishing our liberty, but I firmly believe it is being eroded by stealth. I will openly admit that I have become totally apathetic about politics over here, because, no matter who you vote for, the "gum'mint" always gets in. (Wish our system was like Bill's.) And it galls me that, through my apathy, I am partly responsible for letting it happen. Sorry times...

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 14 Jul, 2007 1:45 am

Ah! I see Prospero has kindly provided us with a nice shot of the proposed new location for the European Parliament!!