Newbie wanting some help & advice... :)

Not your average framer · Sun 24 Jun, 2007 10:20 pm

Spit wrote: Currently I own a Morso (I bought it well over 18 months ago) and a Gunnar F1 (a bit of an upgrade from my Logan ruler!), a logan hand underpinner (soon to be replaced by a minigraf), Bambi compressor, tabmaster point gun, assorted hand tools - like I said, an expensive hobby, though the Gunnar has been bought with a view to going professional.

The Gunnar puts you ahead of most of the UK framers on the forum (some hobby)- Most of us can only dream about having one! If you use it to the full you will soon upstage a lot of your competition.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Sun 24 Jun, 2007 11:07 pm

The reasoning behind the purchase of the Gunnar was quality, value, and choice.

I was considering a new manual cutter such as an ultimat, along with a high end oval cutter. The price for those two comes to about half to two thirds of a decent second-hand CMC, but the CMC gives you speed, accuracy and far more options than the manual cutters. It seemed sensible to spend a little (ok not quite little) extra to get something that will add a lot of options to my business plans, and like you say, an advantage over the competition, something that makes me different from the rest.

I've had it just over a week, finding the software a little quirky in places but I'm doing fine with it.

Have you seen the Valiani in Sales/Wants?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 25 Jun, 2007 12:14 am

Not your average framer wrote:
The Gunnar puts you ahead of most of the UK framers on the forum

Disagree - can he do washlines - what sort of shop is the machine in anyway what's behind the mounts he cuts and how is the artwork fixed in place etc etc etc etc ???

He can run - but could he already walk?

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Mon 25 Jun, 2007 1:09 am

In answer to your questions:

Not yet, but I'm building a nice pile of offcuts and mounts from the machine with which I can practice. One thing I have at the moment is time - lots of it!

A village shop. Seems too remote to work? That's what I first thought, but here people will travel miles to get what they want. Pembrokeshire also has a high proportion of artists, and there is a strong local WI presence. There are no framers for 8 miles in any direction, and the ones I've visited don't offer the level of choice that I intend to. Turnaround time is another issue, 3-4 weeks seems to be the norm.

Colourmount conservation mount(s) art and mounts hinged with Japanese hinging tape to another piece of the same mountboard, artbak acid free board for smaller items, hardboard for larger, fletcher tabs (not flexi) ECO 25 brown SA tape, d-rings (1 2 or 3 hole). That's minimum standard, all items are being looked at for improvement before I start. I've done a few small x-stitch too, cotton strip sewn around the edge, which is then laced.

Can I walk? We shall see.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Mon 25 Jun, 2007 8:28 am

Given all I have said above, I can only echo NYA's sentiments.

We are a friendly bunch, only set on the correct standards required by our trade. No one sets out to make it difficult for any newbie; we just say it like it is. The plain truth is always best, although sometimes may seem a little harsh.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Mon 25 Jun, 2007 8:40 am

Roboframer wrote: Disagree - can he do washlines - what sort of shop is the machine in anyway what's behind the mounts he cuts and how is the artwork fixed in place etc etc etc etc ???

He can run - but could he already walk?

John,
He still has a lot to learn, but one thing he won't have to worry about is learning to use one of those fool matcutters where you have to rotate the mat around to cut each side!

It takes quite some time for someone to learn how to cut acceptable mats with one of the "drag a blade on a bar" cutters, but very little time on a CMC! Crap mats are virtually eliminated right from the start!

markw · Post by **markw** » Mon 25 Jun, 2007 8:51 am

Very few can claim they started out as a trainee - got an apprenticeship - went to college. The very few who were lucky enough to get a proper training over a number of years are the only ones who can legitimately claim not to have started out as amateurs. To assume that a short training course and passing your GCF makes you a professional is naive.

We dont have any formal training for youngsters coming into this business - Picture Framing is not recognised by the relevant government agency (probably the Learning and skills council now) as a skilled job and therefore you cant take on a youngster as an apprentice - as say you would if you were a plumber.

Ask the FATG for a formal route into framing - apart from self motivated individuals taking the GCF route theres no other options. So I am afraid most of us start out as amateurs - and government training organisations regards us as such anyway.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Mon 25 Jun, 2007 1:10 pm

osgood wrote:John,
He still has a lot to learn, but one thing he won't have to worry about is learning to use one of those fool matcutters where you have to rotate the mat around to cut each side!

It takes quite some time for someone to learn how to cut acceptable mats with one of the "drag a blade on a bar" cutters, but very little time on a CMC! Crap mats are virtually eliminated right from the start!

I learned how to cut mats with something far trickier than that - the 'drag a blade up a ruler' type of mountcutter. Being able to cut double mats with that, keeping everything square and in proportion and with minimal over/undercuts isn't impossible, but it certainly isn't easy. You need a good eye and plenty of patience. I'll be keeping it as it's good for trimming and cutting backboards.

Mark has a fair point with the lack of formal routes into framing, the thing is at what point do you become 'professional'? Have all framers got to that point when they start trading? Probably not. From what I can see it is more an experience based trade, but how to get that experience, especially if there are few, if any, employment opportunities in your area? All you can do is take training and practice, practice, practice.

Not your average framer · Mon 25 Jun, 2007 9:17 pm

Spit,

You seem to have a fairly good idea of where you are going in terms of equipment. Have you got anywhere with working out prices, etc. It seems that most new framers find pricing to be a rather steep learning curve. A lot of us approach the price issue in completely different ways to each other, so don't expect us to all say the same things.

Some use a computer program like Estlite, while others use price charts. There is no right or wrong solution, but you will need to ensure that you get your mark-up right to make money. I would say that it's never too soon to start working out how you intend to do this. In doing so, you will start asking yourself all sorts of questions which you won't have needed to consider before. Like I said, "it's a steep learning curve" and that probably was true for most if not all of us when we started.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Mon 25 Jun, 2007 11:17 pm

I already have BBEst, from when I was considering doing it as a sideline about a year ago. Mark & Robo put me off the idea at that time for much the same reasons as were offered in this thread - and they were right, at that time.

BBEst has been handy for the business plan I've been working on for the last month, allowing me to compare the prices of other framers in the area with the defaults John has set on the program. So far, the BBEst prices are about 5-8% above the local shop rates. I'll adjust it to match, but I won't go lower.

I've already asked John about upgrading to Estlite and also buying Pre-View. The costs of those are included in the business plan.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Tue 26 Jun, 2007 12:05 am

BTW, I'd just like to offer an apology to Johnny9 for completely and utterly hijacking his topic. Had I known what was going to happen, I'd have started one of me own!

Post by **prospero** » Tue 26 Jun, 2007 12:18 am

Pricing your work can be very tricky. It's important to get it right or you end up working for peanuts. Never try and attract customers by undercutting your competitors. It's simple maths: If you halve your prices and double your trade you are working twice the hours for the same money. If you quote a price for a job, never charge more even if the job took longer than you thought. Even if it's just a couple of pounds. It will cause deep resentment with the customer. Better to allow some headroom and knock a few quid off. Sometimes you have to pay to learn. You will inevitably get the customer who will go ashen when you give a quote: "Oh! I didn't realise it would be so expensive". Watch out for such people. Their reaction would hev been the same if you had quoted half the price. Never back down to them. Another one is the customer who will say "£75! I only paid £5 for the picture". You then quickly round on them by pointing out that if they had paid £5000 for it the frame would still be £75. The world is full of headbangers and a lot of them go into framing shops.

Watch out for the customer who just wants a 'simple pine frame'. What they really want is a cheap frame. (And pine frames are not cheap in any case.) You will get jobs that are just not worth the trouble. I regularly get people who want a cheap frame for a certificate or such like. I usually say I can do it but it will be £30 min. Then point them to W.H.Smith where they can get what they want for £1.95. Sounds bad business but actually they will probably be impressed with your honesty and return at a later date with a more lucrative job.

It's a good idea to work out your running costs on a hourly basis. Even if you work from home. Add up the cost of electricity/rates/phone/insurance/etc for a year and divide by the number of hours you would like to work in a year.
Not the hours you actually work. Include all ongoing business expenses, even tea/coffee and such. These costs all mount up. Add this cost to your hourly charge for labour. Same thing with materials. Charge for the amount you consume in doing a job. Not what actually ends up in it. Allow at least 20% wasteage on mouldings and more on sheet materials. Allow for small sundries - d-rings/wire/glazing points/etc. The cost of these items seems nominal per frame so it's tempting to ignore them in costing a job.

Beware of people phoning for quotes or coming to you without the item they want framing. "How much do you charge for a 20x16 frame?" That sort of thing. Mainly they don't want a 20X16 frame. They have a 20X16 picture they want framing which is a completely different proposition. It's like ringing a garage and saying "My car won't go. How much will it cost to fix it?"
Never give quotes over the phone.

Then there is Mr. Diyer. "Do you sell moulding on it's own?". Ok, you think, don't see why not. But you have have fallen into his trap. Next he will say "How do you cut it?" and "how do you join it?" and "can you cut me a mount and a bit of glass?" Before you know it you have spent 2 hours giving him the crash course on framing during which time you could have done the job 10 times over.

If you ever get pangs of guilt that you may be overcharging, remember you are doing a highly skilled job and should charge accordingly. Garages will routinely charge £250+ an hour for labour.

Johnny9 · Post by **Johnny9** » Tue 26 Jun, 2007 9:17 am

Hi Spit,

I'm still here, reading all that has been said, one day I might be able to put a face to your name, as I'm looking to relocate to South West Wales myself (pembrokeshire), in 1-2 years first I want to learn & start getting experience, then up sticks & move, I have family down there, so I have seen the oppertunity for a framing & other framed wood business...

Johnny9 · Post by **Johnny9** » Tue 26 Jun, 2007 11:37 am

Guys,

Most of you are saying a course is the way forward, so that is what I am in the process of organising, then I can put into practice what I learn, also I have bought a few books, but also from what I've read on here you guys have lots of knowledge & you have been so helpful so far, hope this continues, so if you have any advice on anything to do with framing, I'm all ears, and I will try to be more specific with my questions, rather than asking for everything all at once..... Johnny.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Tue 26 Jun, 2007 1:06 pm

Johnny: There certainly seems to be room for an extra framer or two down the south coast parts, Saundersfoot, Pembroke/Pembroke dock areas, perhaps Haverfordwest too. We were considering a move to one of those locations, but the housing market here is a bit flat, too many properties, not enough buyers so selling our own has proved too difficult. We didn't really want to move anyway - we love it where we are.

Staying put has its advantages and disadvantages, but on balance we think we can make a go of it where we are. One of the main advantages is costs - we already own a shop, attached to the house, so no rent (ones we were looking at were £500-£650PCM, for quite a small area), and rates for it are peanuts - £250 per year, with rural relief. No travelling to do either! Walk out of the kitchen, straight to work. I even have a free helper, the wife

I will probably have a small mortgage, but it will be less than half of renting a shop.

Still lots of planning left to do, but I won't rush into it. Good luck with your plans!

Johnny9 · Post by **Johnny9** » Tue 26 Jun, 2007 2:33 pm

Steve,

You're a bit further down the road with your plans, and it sound like you have a good business plan....
We want to move down in a year or 2, hopefully with no mortgage, and then buy something with workshop or simular, then tap into holiday makers, passing walking trade, the local community & 2nd home owners, who are buying prints & originals and want them framing, Also I have family down there, who is a known & respected artist, so hopefully with his contacts also I can make a go of things. I also want to get into other timer products, of which I have a few idea's. But I need to "Walk Before I Can Run", so I'm not going to rush into it, training course first & then get some experience & see where it goes...

So where abouts are you in Wales?