O.K., I'll start it off and lets see what happens. If you also wish you could get some things already mentioned why not say so. Let's see if we can get some interaction from suppliers too!
My wishes to start with, (and there will be more I expect), are:
Wedges for stretcher bars without having to buy the bars. (How many times does a customer bring in a painting with missing wedges?)
Really small double hole D-rings to suit smaller mouldings. Also how many people would like D-rings with completely circular rings like on the plate rings, without paying the higher price for plate rings. I think the circular rings look really classy!
Hardened veneer pins which you can drive into hardwoods without bending.
Goldfinger in "White Gold". It's surprising how wasteful it is trying to mix it yourself. 50/50 mix of "Silver" and "Antique Gold" please! (Sorry, but I don't find that Rub n' buff is as good as Goldfinger).
Can we keep this one serious please, we might get some worthwhile action from our suppliers. It's gotta be worth a try. Lets say what we want and ask the suppliers to think about supplying it!
Things we wish we could get from our suppliers
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Not your average framer
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osgood
Re: Things we wish we could get from our suppliers
Great idea for a topic! We all have some wishes, but perhaps somene should also prioritize them when everyone has posted theirs.
Some comments on some of your wishes that don't apply in my business:
I have never had a stretcher come in without wedges!
On a frame that is heavy enough to need double hole dee rings, the moulding should not be so small that normal size double hole dee rings wouldn't fit. I never use tiny mouldings on large frame jobs -impractical.
Because the dee rings are on the back of the frame and will never be seen once it is installed, I don't care how "classy" they look. I care whether they function!
My wishes:
1. That moulding manufacturers would stop churning out crap! Framers are partly to blame for this as they are always looking at price.
2. That suppliers and hence moulding manufacturers would listen to what we want instead of just having someone design a million new mouldings each year, most of which won't sell.
3. That suppliers would stop deleting mouldings that are necessary occassionally, but that don't sell a billion metres a week!
4. That manufacturers would stop changing the formula for any product that is already OK. "If it's not broke, don't fix the bloody thing!"
5. That suppliers would not seek a new manufacturer for something that is already OK, because they want to get it cheaper! Good quality is everything!
6. That a large number of framers would learn to use quality methods and materials, where appropriate (ie. on everything that is not temporary). One framer in particular here use the cheapest matboards money can buy on everything and the margins of that mats are never larger than 30mm. Sheeeeesh!
There are more but I am tired of typing and this is making me a little irritated, just thinking about the crap I have had to deal with in the past few weeks!
Some comments on some of your wishes that don't apply in my business:
I have never had a stretcher come in without wedges!
On a frame that is heavy enough to need double hole dee rings, the moulding should not be so small that normal size double hole dee rings wouldn't fit. I never use tiny mouldings on large frame jobs -impractical.
Because the dee rings are on the back of the frame and will never be seen once it is installed, I don't care how "classy" they look. I care whether they function!
My wishes:
1. That moulding manufacturers would stop churning out crap! Framers are partly to blame for this as they are always looking at price.
2. That suppliers and hence moulding manufacturers would listen to what we want instead of just having someone design a million new mouldings each year, most of which won't sell.
3. That suppliers would stop deleting mouldings that are necessary occassionally, but that don't sell a billion metres a week!
4. That manufacturers would stop changing the formula for any product that is already OK. "If it's not broke, don't fix the bloody thing!"
5. That suppliers would not seek a new manufacturer for something that is already OK, because they want to get it cheaper! Good quality is everything!
6. That a large number of framers would learn to use quality methods and materials, where appropriate (ie. on everything that is not temporary). One framer in particular here use the cheapest matboards money can buy on everything and the margins of that mats are never larger than 30mm. Sheeeeesh!
There are more but I am tired of typing and this is making me a little irritated, just thinking about the crap I have had to deal with in the past few weeks!
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Roboframer
Free corner samples - Nielsen can do it - others too
Much more Deep rebated mouldings. Nielsen exclusives are all generous.
Agree with Ormond - show me a sample made from quality wood and my order turns up made from cheap pine - it ain't the same moulding.
Greaseproof paper to interleave speciality glass, not brown paper.
Much more Deep rebated mouldings. Nielsen exclusives are all generous.
Agree with Ormond - show me a sample made from quality wood and my order turns up made from cheap pine - it ain't the same moulding.
Greaseproof paper to interleave speciality glass, not brown paper.
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osgood
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Roboframer
Maybe - but some have more buying power. Like for like prices are on a par between those that do and those that don't.
Oh - and could all corner samples have the mitres the same way on each side please, as per a chevron and not like two sides of a frame, if you know what I mean. So you can't stand it up - takes less space and leaves more wood on the inside - also cheaper to produce - al the mitres go one way only, not cutting a 'V' out.
Oh - and could all corner samples have the mitres the same way on each side please, as per a chevron and not like two sides of a frame, if you know what I mean. So you can't stand it up - takes less space and leaves more wood on the inside - also cheaper to produce - al the mitres go one way only, not cutting a 'V' out.
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Not your average framer
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Re: Things we wish we could get from our suppliers
Hi Ormond,osgood wrote:
I have never had a stretcher come in without wedges!
On a frame that is heavy enough to need double hole dee rings, the moulding should not be so small that normal size double hole dee rings wouldn't fit. I never use tiny mouldings on large frame jobs -impractical.
Because the dee rings are on the back of the frame and will never be seen once it is installed, I don't care how "classy" they look. I care whether they function!
I get plenty of old paintings come in with missing wedges and also plenty of new ones with no wedges at all.
The problem with some smaller mouldings is that the wood used is a soft variety and to tighten the screws enough to stop the D-ring from being able to turn sometimes needs two screws.
Classy looking fittings. I have many customers who come to me for something really classy and don't mind paying the extra - Presentation is everything!
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Roboframer
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osgood
Re: Things we wish we could get from our suppliers
Most of my customers come to me for the same reason, but I'm not sure that there is that much difference between the classiness of a round dee ring and a triangular one that is nicely chromed. Certainly not down here and I have never had a customer mention the quality of the hanging hardware I use!Not your average framer wrote: Classy looking fittings. I have many customers who come to me for something really classy and don't mind paying the extra - Presentation is everything!
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Not your average framer
- Posts: 11008
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- Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
- Location: Glorious Devon
Trust me Ormond, it works. Some of these customers, have a house in London and one on Dartmoor and a big boat at Salcombe or Dartmouth. They buy very traditional, but modern originals and want them framed in hand-finished stacked moulding frames in a very vintage sort of style.
These people will bring in expensive hand-finished frames from fashionable London places like Mayfair, St James, Hampstead Heath, Finsbury Park or Camden Lock and say "Can you frame it to look like this". All these expensive up-market London framers use plate rings and go to town with making the back look the business. As I want as many customers like this as I can get, I also go to town with making the back look the business.
It's always a very classy hand-finished frame with a finish to die for! I learn more from copying these customers frames that any other training can possibly provide. It's well paid work. They appreciate what you do and are always back for more.
"Can you frame it to look like this" - It will be a pleasure!
I think the back of the frames very import - Customers do look at it and draw conclusions, especially if you want them to!
These people will bring in expensive hand-finished frames from fashionable London places like Mayfair, St James, Hampstead Heath, Finsbury Park or Camden Lock and say "Can you frame it to look like this". All these expensive up-market London framers use plate rings and go to town with making the back look the business. As I want as many customers like this as I can get, I also go to town with making the back look the business.
It's always a very classy hand-finished frame with a finish to die for! I learn more from copying these customers frames that any other training can possibly provide. It's well paid work. They appreciate what you do and are always back for more.
"Can you frame it to look like this" - It will be a pleasure!
I think the back of the frames very import - Customers do look at it and draw conclusions, especially if you want them to!
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osgood
Speaking of hand-finishing, I would like to see more mouldings available unfinished. There is quite a good range available, but occaisionally I have seen a great moulding in a rep's case and asked "Can you get that in plain wood?". The answer is usually either "No" or "Yes......if you take 3000 metres". I can understand this to a point. The big factories use automated production lines where they almost shove a tree in one end and finished moulding comes out the other end ready wrapped.
Pulling out a few hundred feet halfway though is not practical. But suppliers who sell UK made stuff (Frinton Mouldings for one deserve a plug) are often willing to get me unfinshed stock if I time it right with the production runs.
I even buy finished stuff and strip it. It has to be the right price obviously, but many clearance lines have weird finishes but useful profiles. You don't see much of the old cheap brassy ornate 'mirror' moulding nowadays, but this stuff is very good once you apply a more subtle finish.
Another gripe is with Liberon. I use a lot of their excellent Gilt Varnish. I would like to buy the base varnish seperately, as sometimes I do finishes that have just a hint of gold to let the painted undercoat show. If You let the varnish settle, all the gold sinks to the bottom of the can and you can vary the concentration or pour off the clear part and use as it is. It is great for frames. It dries fast, hard as nails and you can remove it with turps without disturbing the (acryllic) underpainting. There was a time that they would sell the base varnish in 1Ltr quantities which I using a lot of. Then all of a sudden - not available
Now I am forced to buy tins with gold in, use the clear top bit and slinging the gold away. It's not so much the cost, it's the waste the annoys me. They must have barrels of the stuff in the factory. All I want is a few litres. 
btw. I have heard on the grapevine that Liberon will be discontinuing this product in favour of a water-based alternative in near future. For my purposes this would be useless. Some colours have already been withdrawn. I am now looking for a suitable clear varnish so I can mix my own. Nearest one I have found is Spectrum gloss (from Lion). Only thing is it takes a few days to harden, which slows things down too much. I have a few more to test, but if anyone knows anything that has similar properties to the Liberon stuff, pleeeeeze let me know.
Pulling out a few hundred feet halfway though is not practical. But suppliers who sell UK made stuff (Frinton Mouldings for one deserve a plug) are often willing to get me unfinshed stock if I time it right with the production runs.
I even buy finished stuff and strip it. It has to be the right price obviously, but many clearance lines have weird finishes but useful profiles. You don't see much of the old cheap brassy ornate 'mirror' moulding nowadays, but this stuff is very good once you apply a more subtle finish.
Another gripe is with Liberon. I use a lot of their excellent Gilt Varnish. I would like to buy the base varnish seperately, as sometimes I do finishes that have just a hint of gold to let the painted undercoat show. If You let the varnish settle, all the gold sinks to the bottom of the can and you can vary the concentration or pour off the clear part and use as it is. It is great for frames. It dries fast, hard as nails and you can remove it with turps without disturbing the (acryllic) underpainting. There was a time that they would sell the base varnish in 1Ltr quantities which I using a lot of. Then all of a sudden - not available
Now I am forced to buy tins with gold in, use the clear top bit and slinging the gold away. It's not so much the cost, it's the waste the annoys me. They must have barrels of the stuff in the factory. All I want is a few litres. btw. I have heard on the grapevine that Liberon will be discontinuing this product in favour of a water-based alternative in near future. For my purposes this would be useless. Some colours have already been withdrawn. I am now looking for a suitable clear varnish so I can mix my own. Nearest one I have found is Spectrum gloss (from Lion). Only thing is it takes a few days to harden, which slows things down too much. I have a few more to test, but if anyone knows anything that has similar properties to the Liberon stuff, pleeeeeze let me know.
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Not your average framer
- Posts: 11008
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- Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
- Location: Glorious Devon
Hi Prospero,prospero wrote: Another gripe is with Liberon. I use a lot of their excellent Gilt Varnish. I would like to buy the base varnish seperately, as sometimes I do finishes that have just a hint of gold to let the painted undercoat show. If You let the varnish settle, all the gold sinks to the bottom of the can and you can vary the concentration or pour off the clear part and use as it is. It is great for frames. It dries fast, hard as nails and you can remove it with turps without disturbing the (acryllic) underpainting. There was a time that they would sell the base varnish in 1Ltr quantities which I using a lot of. Then all of a sudden - not available
btw. I have heard on the grapevine that Liberon will be discontinuing this product in favour of a water-based alternative in near future. For my purposes this would be useless. Some colours have already been withdrawn. I am now looking for a suitable clear varnish so I can mix my own. Nearest one I have found is Spectrum gloss (from Lion). Only thing is it takes a few days to harden, which slows things down too much. I have a few more to test, but if anyone knows anything that has similar properties to the Liberon stuff, pleeeeeze let me know.
I haven't used the gilt varnish, but most of their "non-water based" stuff is based very traditional recipes. I wonder if it uses a shellac based varnish, if so you can make up you own varnish.
The recipe would be something like this:
Main ingredient = White polish, to which is added a much smaller amount of "Stand Oil" and perhaps some "Japan driers".
Stand Oil is mainly or even all Linseed Oil which has been boiled in an air-free sealed container. Unlike boiled Linseed Oil, Stand Oil contains no oxygen to oxydize and dull the gilt powder in the varnish. The solidified Oil also prevents atmospheric oxygen from penetrating the varnish and oxydizing the gilt powder.
It might be a good start to call W.S. Jenkins on 0208 808 2336 and ask for their catalogue and to get a copy of Frederick Ointons book on Woodfinishing. Don't get a modern copy of this book, because it's been updated by some one else - You want an earlier copy!
Frederick Ointon really knew his subject and when you get the book you'll understand what I mean. BTW W.S. Jenkins is the french polish supplier to the trade and just by reading their catalogue and Frederick Ointon's book you'll discover an absolute "gold-mine" of very worthwhile information.
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Not your average framer
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Hi Ormond,osgood wrote:NYAF,
There are some big differences between framing in our countries! This is one of them.
If someone wanted a hand finished frame here, I think we would struggle to find them in Oz.
I doubt very much whether I would be able to buy "plate rings' either!
It might be worth looking into this specialist end of the market, it pays very well and as you get known for it people will come miles to use you.
Pete Bingham, who is not just a demonstrator and column writer for Picture Business, when asked about prices suggests that framers should multiply their material costs by ten. He's not joking, he has a very succesful framing business, based on supplying the very top end of the market. Almost all of his framing work appears to be hand-finishing, I spend a week with him so I saw it for myself.
Does not sound expensive? Well, compared to the hand-finishing specialists in the well-financed areas of London he might be cheap! Some of these framing jobs which I've been asked to copy have the gallery prices on the label on the back. One price for the art and another price for the frame. We are talking about at least £250 for a surprisingly small stacked frame consisting of two fully hand finished mouldings. So far every such frame I have seen consists of either multiply mouldings or at least a frame and a slip and always the mitres are completely hidden under the paint, gesso, or gold leaf finish.
Allowing for the materials that means perhaps as much as £100 an hour for labour. Mind you the cost of premises in these areas is extremely expensive too!
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Not your average framer
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Roboframer
I'd really love to get into serious hand finishing - gilding, but I'd have to dedicate time and space that I have not got. Actually I am grateful that I do not have the time!
For me, some woodstain, applied with a cloth and then waxed - including staining waxes and buffed, is about it.
But even then I'll mark the list price up x3 - and I'm probably paying 20% off that list price - this price will be just over par for the same sort of thing bought finished. Popular mouldings in popular profiles I will stain/wax in 100' batches.
Lots of profit.
For me, some woodstain, applied with a cloth and then waxed - including staining waxes and buffed, is about it.
But even then I'll mark the list price up x3 - and I'm probably paying 20% off that list price - this price will be just over par for the same sort of thing bought finished. Popular mouldings in popular profiles I will stain/wax in 100' batches.
Lots of profit.
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osgood
I appreciate your encouragement in this type of work, but there are several factors which make it a non-viable type of framing for this market.Not your average framer wrote: Hi Ormond,
It might be worth looking into this specialist end of the market, it pays very well and as you get known for it people will come miles to use you.
1. There is no market for hand finished framing in this area with a population of around 60,000, many of which are retirees. There is no industryhere except tourism so incomes are not high for most people.
2. Even if there were a small market, it takes way too much time to hand finish mouldings. (for my business)
3. It's not what people want!
As I said before, different countries and different areas have different needs. If we don't realise what the needs are in our own area, we will fail.
I know what the needs are in my area, that's why I have been doing this for 22 years and many other framing businesses and people in the business have come and gone!
One of the reasons I got into hf was the decline in quality and range of mouldings that seemed to start in the 90's. A lot of the work I take on is for pro artists who want 'just the right look' for their work. It's nice not to be limited to what I can get hold of. When you start using high-end factory-finished moulding you can soon come unstuck. Take a big frame,
maybe for a 40x30 oil using a big moulding about £6.00+ a foot. In theory you could make it from 2 10ft lengths. Thats min £120 for materials. If the moulding was not a regular stock item (unlikely) experience would tell me that expecting to get two perfect lengths is wishful thinking. So I buy 3 lengths to be safe. (that's £180 before I start). If all is perfect, I use 2 bits on the frame and still have 10ft piece left. This will probably get kicked about the workshop for the next 10 years until I get another job for it. Sod's law dictates I will need 12ft for the job so I need to buy another length which will not match the first or more likely not available any more. I'm sure this is a familiar story..... It doesn't end there. I make the frame, customer delighted - takes it away to exhibition. Let's say I charge him £300. Returns few weeks later. He has sold the painting, but some person at the exhibition put a red 'sold' sticker on the frame which pulled a chuck of the finish off when removed. Can I 'touch it up'. Vey rarely can you do this on factory frames. With the best will in the world sometimes it is immpossible.
So it's basically £300 loss to the artist.
If I hand finished the same frame, the material costs would have been dramatically reduced. Virtually no waste. Any 'dings' are made good during the hf process. And the artist need not worry about damage. He can bring it back with chunks missing and I can fix it. Even had one customer who had to break a big frame down when he took a smaller car to pick his stuff up from exhib than the one he delivered it in. I make my frames very strong so he had to mangle the corners quite badly. After initial cringe I set to and fixed it good as new. Could not have done it with a factory fin moulding.
Ok, as osgood points out, it's 'horses for courses'. I have a wall full of hf sample chevrons and people tend to comment "What a big range of mouldings". I then point out (trying not to be too smug) that they are just a few examples. They can have whatever they want, providing they know what it is of course. My usual strategy is to tell an indecisive customer that I know just the frame that will suit their picture and to let me go ahead and make it up without obligation. If they don't like the result then they are free to tell me and I will either do another or tweak the finish a bit until it's right. Works 99% of the time and saves a lots of time in the end. Plus I point out that the frame is the only one of it's kind in existense and was designed for solely them. Which is true up to a point.
I did have a lady who brought one back 3 years later saying it was maybe a little dull for the painting. I still stuck to my promise and 'blinged' the frame up slightly. Not a big job and heaps of PR points.
Heres a one I made eariler....
maybe for a 40x30 oil using a big moulding about £6.00+ a foot. In theory you could make it from 2 10ft lengths. Thats min £120 for materials. If the moulding was not a regular stock item (unlikely) experience would tell me that expecting to get two perfect lengths is wishful thinking. So I buy 3 lengths to be safe. (that's £180 before I start). If all is perfect, I use 2 bits on the frame and still have 10ft piece left. This will probably get kicked about the workshop for the next 10 years until I get another job for it. Sod's law dictates I will need 12ft for the job so I need to buy another length which will not match the first or more likely not available any more. I'm sure this is a familiar story..... It doesn't end there. I make the frame, customer delighted - takes it away to exhibition. Let's say I charge him £300. Returns few weeks later. He has sold the painting, but some person at the exhibition put a red 'sold' sticker on the frame which pulled a chuck of the finish off when removed. Can I 'touch it up'. Vey rarely can you do this on factory frames. With the best will in the world sometimes it is immpossible.
So it's basically £300 loss to the artist.
If I hand finished the same frame, the material costs would have been dramatically reduced. Virtually no waste. Any 'dings' are made good during the hf process. And the artist need not worry about damage. He can bring it back with chunks missing and I can fix it. Even had one customer who had to break a big frame down when he took a smaller car to pick his stuff up from exhib than the one he delivered it in. I make my frames very strong so he had to mangle the corners quite badly. After initial cringe I set to and fixed it good as new. Could not have done it with a factory fin moulding.
Ok, as osgood points out, it's 'horses for courses'. I have a wall full of hf sample chevrons and people tend to comment "What a big range of mouldings". I then point out (trying not to be too smug) that they are just a few examples. They can have whatever they want, providing they know what it is of course. My usual strategy is to tell an indecisive customer that I know just the frame that will suit their picture and to let me go ahead and make it up without obligation. If they don't like the result then they are free to tell me and I will either do another or tweak the finish a bit until it's right. Works 99% of the time and saves a lots of time in the end. Plus I point out that the frame is the only one of it's kind in existense and was designed for solely them. Which is true up to a point.
I did have a lady who brought one back 3 years later saying it was maybe a little dull for the painting. I still stuck to my promise and 'blinged' the frame up slightly. Not a big job and heaps of PR points.
Heres a one I made eariler....
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Not your average framer
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- Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
- Location: Glorious Devon
Hi Prospero,
A little correction on my part for you. The writer of the book I mentioned is Frederick Oughton and his book is titled "The Complete Manual of Woodfinishing". It's pretty much the standard work on the subject!
I also tried to find the book I have of Varnish Recipes to try and come up with something more accurate too, but we moved house about a year ago and it is yet to be located.
A little correction on my part for you. The writer of the book I mentioned is Frederick Oughton and his book is titled "The Complete Manual of Woodfinishing". It's pretty much the standard work on the subject!
I also tried to find the book I have of Varnish Recipes to try and come up with something more accurate too, but we moved house about a year ago and it is yet to be located.
Found some copies on Amazon so I think I'll grab one.