which cassese??

palitana · Post by **palitana** » Tue 10 Jul, 2007 7:00 pm

Hello there,

Am in process of upgrading underpinner and would like bit of advice from those that know.

Have fished about a bit here and seems to be that Cassese is a good bet.

Just pondering which one to go for. I tried out the 299m ultra a while ago at Simons. It was dead swish, but maybe should be at two grand plus.

Soooo....maybe should go for 88 or 89?

Then again(ponder,ponder)...if 299 is much better for joining maybe worth the investment?
...mmmmm

Any thoughts? has anyone out there upgraded from 88/9 to 299. If so why, and is there noticable difference in performance?

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

markw · Post by **markw** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 8:43 am

I have a 299 - had it for 12 months and very pleased with it. Having had a number of similar machines over the years its noticeable that Cassese have developed a well engineered yet simple design.

My only criticism would be that you have to use a spacer against the fences for most smaller mouldings - I can understand why they have done this as it allows the machine to handle large mouldings and be able to adjust the fence for efficient joining - its just a pain that you have to use the spacer for almost all joining - previous machines seem to have managed with a smaller fence - but none have given me joints of the consistent standard given by the Cassese.

This is the first machine that I've owned that doesn't require that you change springs - It doesn't seem to have any. The first Euro underpinner I owned used to dramatically fire out bits of shattered spring steel - others would just get tired as the springs weakened - so absence of springs was bit of a selling point as far as I was concerned.

I like the fact that I can use very small wedges - and colour coded cassettes is also a real advantage - oh so easy to leave the wrong size wedges in a machine before colour coded cassettes.

Hayend · Post by **Hayend** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 11:14 am

Last year I upgraded from the CS79 to the CS88 after much research. I guess it probably depends on the amount of work and the space you have available. I looked at other makes but I like the ease with which you can change the cartridges and the easy adjustments of the fences - I do though echo the comments about the spacer which I need to use at least 80% of the time. The CS88 is very compact which is good for me and gives a great join, it is certainly the right decision for me as a part-time framer working from home with a low turnover of pictures compared with most.

Mark Thornton · Post by **Mark Thornton** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 11:45 am

Minigraf 44

Beats the Cs299 into the ground and is cheaper too!!

If you do have to have a Cassese go for the Cs88 as the Cs89 is nowhere near as good even though it is pneumatic.
BTW
(the Cs299 does have a spring for the wedge feed that does need changing)

markw · Post by **markw** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 12:02 pm

Mark - your correct. Its not your normal type of coil spring though - and its not under the enormous pressures and strains that some machines put on springs.
I am sure that you get used to a certain type of machine - I always had the euro machines before the 299 - they were designed by the same company and so followed some of the same basic principles.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 5:33 pm

While we're on the subject of Cassese underpinners, is there any way of making life easier when joining scoop mouldings. I tried one of those gizmos with the magnetic head from Lion, but found it a PITA to use, and it dented the mouldings.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 8:57 pm

I have exactly the opposite opinion as Mark Thornton. I have owned a Mingraf 44 for many years and now have a Cassese 3099 Ultra.

The tightness of the joints made by any Cassese machine is better than the Minigraph 44. My Minigraph 44 never joined one corner in 12 years as tightly as the Cassese does. All the Cassese models join in the same way, the more expensive models have extra features which help to speed up the process.

Following are some of the features of the Cassese vee nails that make them superior:

1. Rust-protected
2. Lubricated for smoother penetration and for minimum wearing of the machine.
3. Cassese vee nails are individual, without glue.
4. Manufactured with high quality steel
5. Cartridges are colour-coded to identify the size of vee nails they contain
6. Each cartridge contains a minimum of 275 to 290 vee nails. Thanks to the cartridges, you use 100 % of the vee nails.
7. Special vee nails for very hard timbers are available. Cartridges labelled HW individually
8. POWER STRIP (patented) Cartridge vee nails (except #5) are produced with a corrugation in the middle that improves the resistance of the Wedges and make them join even harder materials without difficulty
9. Due to cartridges, there are no parts to be changed or adjusted on your machine, when you change the size.
10. Cartridge vee nails are made from a special steel alloy which gives shape memory properties to the wedge. This way, when it penetrates into the moulding, it spreads its wings which try then to come back to their initial position.
11. In addition to the 5 usual sizes (5, 7, 10, 12 & 15mm), 2 smaller sizes :3mm & 4mm ideal for fillets.

Some of the features of the 3099 Ultra: (Many of these features apply to the other models too)

1. Unique double-action Cassese rebate clamp preventing corners from off-setting. VERY POWERFUL CLAMP SYSTEM
2. Double-action rebate clamp preventing corners from off-setting
3. Unique pressure sensitive control of wedge insertion. No pressure adjustment required - when changing between softwood and hardwood timber.
4. Pressure sensitive wedge sensor. Even if the cartridge runs out mid-way through joining a corner.The join remains clamped while the operator replaces the cartridge, so you always use 100% of the vee nails in a cartridge.
5. Patented self-adjusting back supports: Are adjustable to the shape of any moulding profile, to prevent gaps in the top or bottom of the joint.
6. Safe : will not fire vee nails without mouldings in position.
7. Quick-Change top clamp : to adjust between softwood and hardwood mouldings.
8. Unique driver blade that is the same shape as a vee nail, so it can push a vee nail into surface of joint without pushing the joint upwards.
9. Memorise 1500 profiles for instant setup
10. No accidental vee nails out through the top of joints
11. Controls and screen on the side of the machine, not on the front where a support table needs to be.
12. No mechanical protrusions at the back to prevent operation from the back.

Remember, you get what you pay for!

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 9:03 pm

markw wrote: My only criticism would be that you have to use a spacer against the fences for most smaller mouldings - I can understand why they have done this as it allows the machine to handle large mouldings and be able to adjust the fence for efficient joining - its just a pain that you have to use the spacer for almost all joining

Mark,
I have the 3099 Ultra, which also uses a spacer for narrow mouldings. I certainly don't use it for any more than 20% of the mouldings I use. I find that it is not a problem to use either.

If your outermost vee nail is around 16mm from the back, the spacer is not needed. In many cases it is possible to place the outer vee nail at that location to eliminate using the spacer.

If you are using it for most mouldings, I get the impression that you might be selling a lot of narrow mouldings.?

Mark Thornton · Post by **Mark Thornton** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 9:47 pm

Hey Osgood are you on commission from Cassese?
Maybe i will ask them when i next go over.

Hmmmm 12 years without a good joint maybe a bit more practice needed

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 10:00 pm

Mark,
No I'm not on commission or any other form of reward from Cassese, although I wish I was.

As far as practice is concerned, perhaps you might be right, but with a Cassese there is no practice required. Once the machine is set up for the moulding to be joined, anyone can get excellent joints. That does not always happen with other brands.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Wed 11 Jul, 2007 10:54 pm

I was chasing a cassese 3099 on EBay a month or so ago, but with the bidding at £900 the buyer bottled it and stopped the auction with three hours to go, claiming he'd sold it elsewhere. I was willing to go twice as much. Don't you just hate Ebay nowadays? That's the third item in five that I've bid for recently that that's happend to.

I've been looking at underpinners for a while and had been looking at the mid range minigrafs - but after this thread, now I'm wondering if it may be better to splash out another £400 for the cassese. The main points for me are that the minigrafs are good allrounders, but the cassese allows for pinning slips, which makes it more flexible in terms of future plans... but ultimately I'm looking for the best quality joins right from the start.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 12:03 am

Spit wrote:I was chasing a cassese 3099 on EBay a month or so ago, but with the bidding at £900 the buyer bottled it and stopped the auction with three hours to go, claiming he'd sold it elsewhere.

I'm not surprised he sold it elsewhere if that all that was been offered for it. Even in British pounds that would be giving it away! New, they are around $14,500 down here.

Spit wrote:ultimately I'm looking for the best quality joins right from the start.

Glad to hear that, Spit! Try as many brands out as you wish. Demonstrators will often show how to join the mouldings that their machine joins the best and that might not give a true indication for you. Take your own cut mouldings to join on a demo machine.

From my experience, I think you will find that Cassese will do the best joints!

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 12:41 am

You can get one here for around £5000 new, so £2000 for a second hand, unseen one would seem a reasonable bargain at an auction - the first thing I'd have done is have a full service on it.

The point is, on Ebay most of the big money goes in the last ten minutes. I fully expected to have to go over 2k for it, but was never given the chance. I was a bit annoyed.

I don't really need a model at that level, but I take the view that I buy the best tools I can afford - if I can get a second hand top level model for the same price as a new medium level, it makes sense. It gives room for expansion, and if you have the best tools, there is only one thing to blame if you do a bad job.......

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 1:19 am

Spit wrote:Y It gives room for expansion, and if you have the best tools, there is only one thing to blame if you do a bad job.......

Right on the money, Spit!

Thats the second most logical and sensible statement I've seen this week!

palitana · Post by **palitana** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 7:02 am

Hey, what a great response.
Thanks to everyone for really interesting and informed replies.

Still edging towards Cassese (after all Osgood needs his percentage to pay for his fancy equipment eh?!

).

Mmmm...now lusting after 3099. I tried that out at Simons, It was a joy to use, but put it from my mind due to cost. I did find it easier to operate than 299, but then again these things take a bit of practise. Has anyone tried 486? Think this has same mechanism as 3099, but without the memory.

Think another trip to the Simons showrooms is on the cards. Good plan to take few mouldings. I do use quite a few narrow ones, so will see how I get on...getting excited now. Good getting new toys innit?

Thanks again.

p.s.Moglet,. with regards to scoop mouldings..do agree...right pita. My answer is not to offer them, (well the odd one or two) but guess that is more cop-out than solution!
(of corse when I get my fancy new casses may be different story....!)

Mark Thornton · Post by **Mark Thornton** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 7:41 am

Moglet
Scoop mouldings are easier to join if you make a small "jig" from the same scoop moulding you are wanting to join.
Cut two small chevrons on your morso with the rebate pointing towards you (opposite way round to normal)then pin them together.
You now have a chevron with the profile reversed.
When you come to pin your troublesome moulding and have it clamped on your underpinner place the jig upside down
on top of the moulding which you are wanting to join this "jig" will then give you a flat surface for your top clamp pad to sit on.

Palitana
You are correct the Cs486 is the same as the Cs3099 minus the touch screen memory and the latest version is called the Cs486XL

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 9:22 am

palitana wrote:Mmmm...now lusting after 3099. I tried that out at Simons, It was a joy to use, but put it from my mind due to cost. I did find it easier to operate than 299, but then again these things take a bit of practise. Has anyone tried 486? Think this has same mechanism as 3099, but without the memory.

Bear in mind that the larger underpinners will probably need a more substantial compressor, which of course will add to the cost.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 9:27 am

Spit,

I'm not too sure that your info about requiring a larger compressor would be true. The volume of air used by a vee nailer is not huge like a chopper. The pressure is probably more important than the volume of air produced.

Most compressors, even small capacity ones down here will pump enough pressure.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 9:50 am

It goes back to those comments about the silent compressor outputs, as the 3099 can use 5 litres of air in one gulp. If you were doing a whole batch of frames in quick succession you could outpace a smaller compressor.

It depends on which way you use it - for most, I suppose its 3 or 4 frames an hour, rather than four a minute for a production framer, which is who the 3099 is really aimed at.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 9:59 am

I have a 12 cubic ft/min compressor and it has no trouble driving the 3099 as fast as I can join with it set on auto.
With the equipment I have, I wouldn't consider any smaller compressor than this.

5 litres seems like a lot, but I'll take your word for that if you have checked it out.