The Framers Forum

I am pushed for storage space and have limited capacity. The online side of things is doing well and stock is taking up a lot of space. bespoke is doing OK as well, more stock space required. So to alleviate the situation I'm considering switching to using chop for the majority of bespoke orders. I can see the benifits of holding less stock, no waste, larger range on offer etc but Im not sure about the pitfalls. The effort involved in recalculating prices I supose, any others?

Do you plan to pass on the added cost of the privilidge to your customers or are you going to stand it yourself, considering the framing will take less time, you won't have the stock holding or wastage?

On the odd occasion I have used chop for alluminium mouldings i haven't been able to use the normal mark up that I would do as the clients wouldn'y stand the cost even though they are wanting something very specific that i wouldn't normaly promote. If you increase your prices to make life easier for you, your clients might not like it as they won't see a benifit for themselves.

I haven't done the maths yet. Jobs will take less time but cost more in materials....or will they. I'm not sure yet.

They will and they won't - the price per metre will be around 80% more but you'll have no wastage and less labour.

99% of my chop orders are aluminium and I charge the same chop as I would length, but if I told my software it was chop the customer would pay slightly less from what I've tested it on!

It's really handy if you have a supplier that does chop service and delivers on their own van as suppliers have minimum orders for carriage-paid for chop, even if included with other stuff.

I think I would have a hard time explaining to my customers that I charge different prices for an identical product based on what are essentially logistical grounds. (ie: whether I mitre the moulding here or it is done by some other bloke somewhere else)

The situation won't arise unless some mouldings are offered both ways - in those cases they should be priced at whichever is the highest rate.

I think the point robo the way j read it is that he is moving over completely to chop so if he frames something for an existing customer similar to a previous job then the material cost will be greater but the client probably won't want to pay more than they did originally.

That's the idea Grays. But I need to think about it carefully and introduce it gradually I think. I use Lion mostly, Wessex deliver by van but charge for it so I'm stuck with that cost I think.

Personally I think you would have to introduce it gradually or introduce new prices for new customers and increase prices to old clients over time.

I use chop (Lion) for hard wood and (not Morso friendly mouldings) and argument my stock range. It depends how busy you are and your relationship with your supplier. Buying one item of chop and paying the delivery charge makes it uncompetitive. If you order several at once the delivery is free or negligible. The cut is great, if its not they take it back and re supply at their cost. Further more you pay for what is required so no 600mm off cuts that you will never use (18%). Only slight problem, if something goes wrong with the underpinning your stuffed.

Augment even. dam you auto spell correction

Although I have only been going for around 18 months now, I see chops as I no brainer, I started this way and will continue with chops for the foreseeable future.

This opinion has be reinforced by posts on this forum about the problems with blades not cutting cleanly, warped and damaged lengths being supplied. Also visiting other framers around town for a brew and a chat I see all that money in lengths stacked against their walls waiting for a buyer, not to mention the storage space taken up.

I have just factored in the 1.7 chop price in my software and my customers are none the wiser.

On the up side
No waste
less time to construct a frame
less money tied up in stock
no cutter and blade maintenance costs
no mistakes I have to pay for, if the chop is not perfect it goes back to the supplier.

On the down side
I can't turn around those emergency jobs quickly
I have to pay courier costs if I don't meet the minimum spend
Chops can vary slightly from the ordered size.

Chop is great no waste, don't need to keep stock and saves my blades cutting Oak, (some of them really hardwoods are impossible to cut on the morso)

BUT, it doesn't come with problems. Some mouldings they just can't cut square, chipped corners, cut the wrong size and no control of the end quality sent. No time is saved, that time is spend unwrapping chopped mouldings.

I must add, any problems there replaced quick and without any trouble.

Be interested to know which mouldings they can't cut Square Framie. If they cant cut square what chance do we have using a Morso.
Over 5 years of buying certain items of chop I have had one wrong length, replaced over night for delivery next day and one damaged again re delivered following day. You also get Metres of bubble wrap free.

Considering that the reason for going over to chop is primarily to save on storage space, have you thought of adopting a just in time ordering policy and still order the moulding by the length?

In many cases, it may work out cheaper than ordering on chop and in other cases it may not, but on balance this may still be another solution to the problem.

When it comes to the waste, have you considered a wood burner? It gets rid of any burnable waste and keeps you warm at the same time!

I found very deep rebates and canvas L frames are not cut square, I'm guessing because of the support is not there pushing the mouldings when cut.

I can cut both prefect on the Morso.

Nick sounds like I need to change to your chop supplier, iv had more problems in the past 5 months.

The free bubble wrap is great

I can't see why you have to charge the customer more if their moulding was obtained on chop. If you make a frame from lengths, the quote you provide to your customer covers the cost of buying the moulding, paying to maintain a machine to cut it, wastage, labour, etc. The extra you pay for chop is covering some of those elements that you then won't have to do yourself. The saving in time, wastage etc. negates the premium.

We go chop as much as possible, and in fact, are in the process of implementing a strategy to reduce our non-chop range to reduce money tied up in stock. Ultimately we'll only hold core mouldings in stock (20mm flat black wood etc.) and everything else will be on chop. The savings in time, waste, space, machinery maintenance etc. far outweighs the premium in my opinion, and cashflow is greatly improved as you only pay for what you use. I'm sure we've all got lengths of low-demand moulding in our racks that we've paid for and are just gathering dust.

We've even been experimenting with the routing service which uses the plastic pegs to join the mitres. This works better on some mouldings than others, and we are still in the assessment stage of this experiment, but if it works out this will even reduce my wage bill as chop frames (especially those with the routing kit) can be assembled within minutes of delivery by low-skilled staff, and I might even be able to move to a smaller (cheaper) workshop as I won't need as much space if 90% of my frames can be 'assembled' on a small bench rather than needing an entire workshop.

Chop has been a major part of our strategy for years, and plays an even larger role in our future.

Not your average framer wrote:When it comes to the waste, have you considered a wood burner? It gets rid of any burnable waste and keeps you warm at the same time!

Make sure you don't burn factory pre-finished moulding. I have a wood burner in my workshop and only ever burn unfinished bare wood and even then it's only good as kindling but good nonetheless, better than being chucked I don't burn obeche as it can smell funny

I use chop as an adjunct to my main ranges- usually more ornate mouldings where price is not so critical, also when new ranges are released- get samples and use chop if they prove slow sellers and carry lengths of the more popular ones. It can work well, but to avoid delays in putting orders together it has to be more than an occasional happening, which is why using new additions helps order throughflow.

I might add that I tend to order crosscut, which is a bit cheaper than chop and gives you the flexibility of final size trimming in your workshop- a bit of best of both worlds really. A&T are my main source, although I have used others in the past, and find it a useful addition to what I offer my customers.