Had a nice visit at Lion today

[Spit]

I went for a demo of the MiniGraf 44 vs Cassese 299XL and a look at the excalibur 5000.

For the underpinners, I expected the Cassese was the one I would like the most - but it was not to be. Despite the easier cartridge change mechanism on the Cassese, I found that in use, the Minigraf was better for me. It was just the difference between the way the two machines do the vertical clamp. I also preferred the fences on the graf.

The Cassese does have a couple of other advantages, like 3mm slip wedges - but that's not enough to justify the £500 price difference. So on balance I'm going with the Minigraf. I couldn't see any difference in the completed joins, which is what was most important to me.

The Excalibur cutter was demoed as well - All I can say is WOW. I want one, I will have one. It makes all cutting jobs easy & quick, especially glass.

I really enjoyed the visit - the staff are great, and I felt like a kid in a sweet shop when told I could take my pick of the moulding samples I would really have liked one of everything (I've got to populate Preview!) but I settled for two carrier bags worth of them

[Lemon_Drop]

Hi Spit,
I got the MiniGraf 44 also. and really like it. The heads that you get with the underpinner are for 7,10.15 mm.wedges
If heads is the right word to call them.

I know you can get 5mm also, and was sure 3mm was available, but I never checked it out.
I still use the Cassese 88 for joining slips / fillets.

I found this link,
http://www.gusberti.net/MACCHINARI/HTM/min44.htm

It seems to say that 3mm wedges are available. Its worth checking out, the heads are not that expensive and a box of 3mm wedges will last ages.

Its just the top part of the web page is not in english

[osgood]

The Cassese does have a couple of other advantages, like 3mm slip wedges - but that's not enough to justify the £500 price difference.

Steve,
Cassese has many other advantages, not just a 'couple'. There is one huge difference that is worth the extra money and that is the tightness and quality of the joints produced by Cassese vee nailers. See below for features of Cassese.

I had Minigraf 44 for many years and about 18 months ago bought a Cassese 3099 Ultra and the difference in the quality of the joints produced is dramatic. I was and am still astounded at the difference!

It's your money and your choice of course, but speaking from experience with both the Minigraf 44 and Cassese, my opinion is that your decision will give you joints that are acceptable (but not always), but certainly not the best that you could get.

Cassese features:
Vee nails

1. Rust-protected
2. Lubricated for smoother penetration and for minimum wearing of the machine.
3. Cassese vee nails are individual, without glue.
4. Manufactured with high quality steel
5. Cartridges are colour-coded to identify the size of vee nails they contain
6. Each cartridge contains a minimum of 275 to 290 vee nails. Thanks to the cartridges, you use 100 % of the vee nails.
7. Special vee nails for very hard timbers are available. Cartridges labelled HW individually
8. POWER STRIP (patented) Cartridge vee nails (except #5) are produced with a corrugation in the middle that improves the resistance of the Wedges and make them join even harder materials without difficulty
9. Due to cartridges, there are no parts to be changed or adjusted on your machine, when you change the size.
10. Cartridge vee nails are made from a special steel alloy which gives shape memory properties to the wedge. This way, when it penetrates into the moulding, it spreads its wings which try then to come back to their initial position.
11. In addition to the 5 usual sizes (5, 7, 10, 12 & 15mm), 2 smaller sizes :3mm for fillets.

3099 Ultra machine (Many of these features are common to other models)

1. Unique double-action Cassese rebate clamp preventing corners from off-setting. VERY POWERFUL CLAMP SYSTEM
2. Double-action rebate clamp preventing corners from off-setting
3. Unique pressure sensitive control of wedge insertion. No pressure adjustment required - when changing between softwood and hardwood timber.
4. Pressure sensitive wedge sensor. Even if the cartridge runs out mid-way through joining a corner.The join remains clamped while the operator replaces the cartridge, so you always use 100% of the vee nails in a cartridge.
5. Patented self-adjusting back supports: Are adjustable to the shape of any moulding profile, to prevent gaps in the top or bottom of the joint.
6. Safe : will not fire vee nails without mouldings in position.
7. Quick-Change top clamp : to adjust between softwood and hardwood mouldings.
8. Unique driver blade that is the same shape as a vee nail, so it can push a vee nail into surface of joint without pushing the joint upwards.
9. Memorise 1500 profiles for instant setup
10. No accidental vee nails out through the top of joints
11. Controls and screen on the side of the machine, not on the front where a support table needs to be.
12. No mechanical protrusions at the back to prevent operation from the back.

I have no connection with Cassese and do not receive any benefit from that company.

[Mark Thornton]

Spit

Glad your happy with the 44

Regarding the Excalibur do yourself a favour and buy a Fletcher 3100 instead, its a far superior cutter and will give you consistant cuts for many years (unlike the Excalibur)

[Spit]

Yeah, but the 3099 costs at least £3000 more!

The differences between the MG44 & CS299 aren't much at all.

One other problem I have is that I have an eco-friendly conscience...... I hate the idea of throwing away plastic cartridges. If they'd made them reusable, maybe things would be slightly different.

Whatever happens, I'll make my purchase on what feels right, and at the moment that is entirely based on how it feels when the punch goes in. Surely if you're going to work with it for decades you've got to be comfortable with the way it works?

[Spit]

Spit

Glad your happy with the 44

Regarding the Excalibur do yourself a favour and buy a Fletcher 3100 instead, its a far superior cutter and will give you consistant cuts for many years (unlike the Excalibur)

I did look at the fletcher - nice bit of kit, but just not quite as easy to use! From what I've seen/read any cutting problems on the Ex can be easily cured by shoving a supporting block at the back, emulating the supports the fletcher has.

[osgood]

Yeah, but the 3099 costs at least £3000 more!

Not suggesting that you buy a 3099. I think you will find that most of the features in my list do apply to the CS299 too.

The differences between the MG44 & CS299 aren't much at all.

I disagree completely. There are approximately 20 points of difference in the list and they are very considerable differences, I would have thought! (and have experienced)

[Mark Thornton]

Spit

Your money = your choice
If shoving a block of timber in the back of a Excalibur cures its problems then i would be out of a job, happily there are more problems than its worth.

(and the Fletcher is Cheaper)

Osgood
how come every time someone asks a underpinner question you copy and paste a Cassese cs3099 promo?
Cassese make some excellent equipment but not everybody has afew thousand pounds to spend and some of the other manufacturers also make equally good machines but sometimes cheaper.

[osgood]

Osgood
how come every time someone asks a underpinner question you copy and paste a Cassese cs3099 promo?

Mark,
As I said in a previous post, most of the features of the 3099 also apply to other models, especially from the CS299 model and upwards. Those features are points of difference and are very beneficial in producing superior quality joints. I was never suggesting that Mark should buy the 3099. Just suggesting that the CS299 would have most of the features of the 3099 and thus it would make better quality joints. As you and I both have already said "His money, his choice"!

some of the other manufacturers also make equally good machines but sometimes cheaper.

That's your opinion, but mine is different.
My opinion comes from experience. I have owned a Euro, a Minigraf 3, a Minigraf 44, and a Cassese 3099 Ultra. None of those other machines even came close to being 'equally good'.

Experience over many years with any machine is much more valuable experience than an hour or two in a suppliers premises joining mouldings (usually that they have chosen for you to join) and I was passing on my experience to Steve, in this case, in order to offer him the benefit of that experience.

The difference in quality of joints produced with the Cassese technology is dramatic and in my opinion a few hundred dollars/pounds is worth spending if a framer is concerned with making superior joints.

There's a quote from John Ruskin that applies to anything we buy: "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."
In other words 'you get what you pay for'.

Isn't that what we tell our customers when we offer them better quality materials and techniques?