The Framers Forum

Question, what is the industry standard method of frame purchase ? Pack only or do you by single lengths as required. To date we have been able to purchase lengths of frame and due to supplier disputes with their suppliers we are now forced to purchase packs only. The packs vary from 2 lengths to 6 lengths. It's been a shock to us. We are a small shop catering for artists and single job lots meaning one off designs. For example of our stress we just took orders for three individual frame jobs all three have different frames, each job uses one 2.7m of frame. We placed the order as normal and received 12 lengths of frame. We are working at a loss in order to build a frame collection we may never sell in years. It will break us. Curious to receive answers to this problem. To note to date we have traded in a profitable position but we will not survive if we have to trade using the suppliers terms. WE NEED BROKEN PACKS.

In the UK if you are a small outfit then you will use a wholeseller, if you are a larger user then you will use a manufacturer or main distributor where you will in the main have to buy pack or box quantities in order to get a better price.

One thing you could do is rationalise the range that you offer and if someone does want to go off piste then they will have to pay for all the molding you have to buy, that usually stops someone going off piste .

Or you can buy pre-chopped? It may seem more expensive, but it's not as expensive as having miles of unused moulding.

Or buy unfinished moulding and hand finish it. There's plenty of information on here on quick and easy (and difficult and slow) finishes. That way you can offer many different frames from just a small number of mouldings.

We have thought a lot about the chop service and it would seem it's th way to go for frames that are not usual sellers. We have tried to stay away from that service in order to use our own saw and tell people we do it all in house. Thanks so much for your reply

It costs money for a supplier to spilt packs and then they are then faced with loose sticks which get damaged. Generally moulding comes in pack quantities according to size - mostly fours. Bigger ones in twos and huge ones in singles.

In practice a general framer will keep at least a few stock lines on popular mouldings so it's not really a problem. It's when you need only a small amount of a particular one that is awkward. You may never need any again and it will sit around for years. So if you need 7ft and have to buy 40ft the remaining 33ft is basically waste. You are always going to get waste. You should factor in a percentage of waste into your pricing strategy the cover this. 30% is a good figure to work on. Of course on some jobs you are going to get minimal waste so you will claw a bit back. And if you later find a use for odd remnants or make them into ready-mades that's and extra bit of jam.

If you want to buy at trade prices I'm afraid you have to abide with trade supply conditions. Remember, DIY stores that sell odd lengths of moulding retail typically apply a huge markup. 4-500%. And having been unwrapped and kicking about in a rack will probably be damaged.

There is also chop service where you can buy moulding ready mitred to size.(At increased cost) Personally I'm not a great fan of chop service.

A ceramics artist who lives near me buys lengths of mouldings ( mostly ) raw from me as he likes to state that everything is made by himself.
This suits me. Perhaps you could find a framer near you to do the same.

Thanks everyone for your help. To be clear we have a very good business, it keeps myself and my daughter quite busy. We do turn over quite a bit of work. We have a nice shop front where we also sell framed posters and other art works. We also sell art works on commission. My reason for the post is that one of our main suppliers who handled one of the major brands was closed down and now we have to get used to the pushy behaviour of the company. It seems unfair that in this industry there seems little help for the small guy pushing their product to the masses, after all we were told that they do not sell to Jo Blogs off the street so it's all of us that sell their products and there is little in return to us for our efforts. Having read the posts to this subject it would seem that the best way for us to work would be to order chops and let them keep the packs. Will that work, who knows we will see. Cheers,

Tassy - bit out on a limb!

2 sides to every story. Imagine you are a distributor on the mainland. Would you unwrap a pack of 2 sticks, them re-wrap the single stick with sufficient protection for transport, and pray it arrives undamaged. What costs involved?

From what you write, chops seem the obvious answer. No waste, no inventory - no brainer

And/or make friends with another framer who is prepared to sell you the odd single length

Good luck with your framing.

( BTW I'm trying to grow some Huon pine seeds - most challenging to germinate )

Framers who want to offer a wide selection of mouldings always have the same dilemma - do you buy in packs or chop. For me the business model works with chop and I stock very little length moulding.

I have never understood the "its all done inhouse" attitude - chopping isnt that technically challenging - making sure your chops are ordered right size is the challenge. If you really are fussy then get cross cut chop.
Of course we are assuming that chop is available where you are.

If chop isn't available then you have little choice but to be very selective about how you stock lengths. For a bespoke framer of course there is always the option of doing a lot of hand finished mouldings and thereby getting a lot of options out of a limited range of barewood profiles.

Good luck with resolving your supply problems.

I don't know what it is like in Tasmania, but in the U.K. chop is not neccessarily an option on all the range of mouldings stocked by any particular supplier. As a result, chop may only solve part of your supply problems. Handfinishing has already been suggested, but since you have already said that business levels keep you and your daughter very busy, I suspect that this may not be a solution which would be compatible with your situation either.

Unfortunately this thread has probably already covered all obvious solutions and maybe it's time to look at some less appealing solutions. the first question that comes to mind is, does your suppliers price list tell you what length of moulding is in a pack. If so, then you can add a surcharge to these moulds to cover the cost of the rest of the pack and maybe offer a discount to get rid of the remaining moulding

There may also be advantages in keeping a particular selected range of moulding in stock and because these don't need to have the same surcharge, then hopefully a good number of your customers will select these moulding because they are better value for money.

With the effects of the recession, I have changed my business methods so that I can supply as many of my customers as possible from moulding that I stock all the time. Perhaps you need to look at this option as well. The only other thing that I would point out, is that your competitors are probably in the same situation as your self and therefore will be facing the same challenges. It could be that both you and your competitors will need to increase prices across the board to address profitability and viability issues in this new situation.

Maybe it's time to be bold and increase your prices as a first step! Surprisingly I found that in 2005, after having a heart attack and putting my prices up to reduce my work load that my customers didn't notice these price increases. To my surprise, I got more orders, not less, so I increased my prices again and as a result I got even more work. It's a lot to think about, but solution to your problems will probably be not just one obvious course of action, but several things working together. I hope that it all comes together for you.

The Chinese word for crisis is a word created by combining two words. One word means danger, will the other word means opportunity. I think you should try to see this as an opportunity and do some bold things, while your competitors are not sure what to do about the same problems.

Fantastic reply Mark, thanks so much. We have discussed all you mentioned. We have also spoken with managment of the major supplier regarding the issue and they were pleased to receive the feedback. They had and are discussing the problem facing the industry in Tasmania and other regional areas of Australia with the view of breaking packs. It may be a game changer. It pays to pick up the phone and say something. Cheers to all, Alan

What percentage of your customers choose a frame from a chevron on the wall, and what percentage choose a frame from a chevron you choose from the wall?

The skill must be to make sure that the second percentage is much greater than the first, and that you guide them towards left-over moulding you have in stock. Just like in a restaurant, where the 'daily special' which is often chosen disproportionately often by punters consists of either the things the chef needs to use up, or the things he bought cheaply.

Well said James. It's a bit like a conjuring trick. Pick a sample, any sample. Was that your sample? Yes.

One advantage of letting punter loose on the wall is that you get a good idea of what appeals to them. Then you steer them to the 'right' one.

What percentage of your customers choose a frame from a chevron on the wall, and what percentage choose a frame from a chevron you choose from the wall?

It looks to me as if Art_Framed actually wants to give his customer a choice and that the very substance of this thread is based upon how to deliver that choice without having to keep a large stock of moulding.

Maybe we take for granted the ability to quickly get a wide choice of mouldings in relatively small amounts from our suppliers - but to my business the ability to do so drives a passionate belief that the customer gets what they want - not just something that I have in stock.

Well said MarkW

markw wrote

"Maybe we take for granted the ability to quickly get a wide choice of mouldings in relatively small amounts from our suppliers - but to my business the ability to do so drives a passionate belief that the customer gets what they want - not just something that I have in stock."

But sometimes (or a lot of the time) it's totally wrong for the artwork

As always, it is the preveiling economic facts of life which creates changes like this. As Markw says, "we all take the availability buying what we want, when we want, for granted". Not only that, but we don't see the train coming down the track until we are dazzled by the headlights. It's the last thing that anyone could have expected!

When things like this come out of the blue, it is very hard to be prepared and managing the transition from how things were, to how things will now be, can be a steeper learning curve than most of us can get our heads around. I'm glad that we are not facing anything like this in the UK and have a lot of sympathy for those who are suddenly having to face this and some how keep everything running while find ways of coping with this.

markw wrote:a passionate belief that the customer gets what they want - not just something that I have in stock.

I'm not convinced by choice. Most people don't care that much; the ones that really care may have no taste... and most of the time it doesn't really matter *which* particular gold/brown/flat/white stick goes round the picture. There are as many different ways to frame a print as there are prints in an edition... Either everybody but one is wrong, or else it really doesn't matter.

Go into a Chinese restaurant with four friends with the aim of sharing 8 dishes; the biggest problem is the huge choice. Probably 250 of the items on the list would be just as nice as any other. Choosing Sichuan Duck over Peking Pork really is no big deal.

Are there not other suppliers who will send one length?

We're lucky in UK, I only know of one supplier that will not split packs (of mouldings OR mount board) but it's not that big a deal as many of the larger and/or more expensive mouldings either come in packs of one length or they will split those that don't, for a premium. The rest that you do have to buy in packs, from 6-24m, yes, you have to take risk with, but generally, with the 6m packs, unless it's a particularly small frame, the wastage you factor in to your materials, should cover you. The larger packs will be budget stuff that you don't mind having stock of and again, one or two jobs from them and you're covered. It's a little bit of speculating to accumulate and if it turns out it doesn't suit - the supplier can be dropped for one that will send one length of anything.

I'm a fan of choice - choice is impressive - visually I mean, not so much from something you have to read, like a menu - if you wanted to relate to that it could be making your customers choose from your supplier catalogues and having nothing on the wall at all.

I don't have a problem with stock either - I have too much really but its pretty much paid for and it means I can do rush jobs easily and also frame stuff up for sale in the shop, or have mad ready-made days ..... or a nice bonfire now and then

I'm not convinced by choice. Most people don't care that much; the ones that really care may have no taste... and most of the time it doesn't really matter *which* particular gold/brown/flat/white stick goes round the picture. There are as many different ways to frame a print as there are prints in an edition... Either everybody but one is wrong, or else it really doesn't matter.

Haha - Such a big mistake to think you know more than your customer. Is there ever a right or wrong? There is always what the customer wants and that defines what we do and how we should do it. Without hijacking the thread its also why Art_Framed is concerned that he needs to be able to get hold of small quantities.



But it's interesting to see that your customers who care have no taste.