Limited Edition Prints?

Post by **John** » Mon 19 Nov, 2007 1:50 pm

Is there a secondary market for limited edition prints?

Two Robert Taylor framed aviation prints were valued on last night’s Antiques Roadshow.

One was signed by many of the heroes of 617 Squadron (Dambusters), and the other by Douglas Bader. I’m guessing that both are long out of print.

The Bader picture was valued at £150, and the other for a bit more. (Sorry I can’t be more specific; I was half asleep at the time)

I would have thought that these are the kind of prices that a current Taylor framed LE print would fetch without any signatures other than the artist’s.

I know from experience that limited edition prints are a hard sell here in Ireland, but it seems that the English art world also has little respect for them.

Grahame Case · Post by **Grahame Case** » Mon 19 Nov, 2007 2:05 pm

to be honest i don't even think there is a primary market for Limited Edition Prints, (as limited editions)

The reason i say this is people now buy prints for what they look like, and how they fit in with their décor. not what edition size they are. Limited Edition prints are often more expensive than open editions, which is usually a factor in the purchase decision.

i speak from experience having to educate people until I'm blue in the face about the edition sizes and difference in value as a result.

a typical conversation may go :

customer : "but this picture is much bigger and cheaper, how come?"

Me : "Well Sir, the small picture you see there is a limited edition print with an edition number of 95, and because it is such a small print run it is consequently more costly to produce and maybe more valuable in the future. that big print is an open edition which means there may realistically be many thousands of the same picture on the market, and consequently less valuable in the future"

of course the main reason someone will buy a picture is because it looks nice and is within budget.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Mon 19 Nov, 2007 4:08 pm

It can depend on the artist. Roger Dean's work definitely has primary and secondary market value. (Not talking "pension fund" here, but it's definitely getting harder to come by!)

Although perhaps not as well-known as Roger Dean, Pauline Bewick is a well-established Irish artist, and her limited editions have certainly accrued in value. For example, she issued a limited edition some years ago of her zodiac series (I think the edition size was 250 prints of each zodiac sign). When first released, each print was priced at IR£30 (about STG£25). Recently, I needed to check the current value of prints from the edition, and was advised that they are changing hands at anywhere between €700 and €1000 (approx STG equivalent £450-£650).

She currently has an exhibition of a series of 11 paintings at the Kenny Gallery in Galway. They are offering limited edition presentation sets of the series (edition size 250) at €9,680 (approximate STG £6,400)!!

Post by **prospero** » Mon 19 Nov, 2007 4:22 pm

I think 'limited edition' prints have definately had their day.

No one has even mentioned David Shepherd to me for years. No alltogether a bad thing as in the early 90's it was frankly becoming a bit of a racket. People bought them mostly to make a quick buck.

I do remember the Dambusters print of which John speaks. In fact a used to frame a lot for the man who went visiting all the old aces to get the sigs.
If I remember right, they were an open edition, but there were some which had about 12 sigs and they are definately worth having. The Bader ones were done in the early eighties and the actual painting was not really up to the quality of Robert's later work. Also they were signed in ink which fades: sometimes disappears completely. The value of these things is all in the condition and I doubt very much if any 'mint' copies exist. Last one I saw was nicely pasted to hardboard with wallpaper paste.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Mon 19 Nov, 2007 6:41 pm

The limited edition print certainly seems to have had its day round these parts, too. Started about ten years ago....
Maybe devalued by the ready availability of giglee "limited editions" (print on demand). It seemed to start round our way with the advent of colour photocopies, got worse when everyone got a computer printer, and went down hill from there.

Signed memorabilia/commemorative (mainly sporting) prints seem to have filled that niche.

Maybe people dont value the artists at all, just the "celebrity" ?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 19 Nov, 2007 6:52 pm

A competitor is closing down - he is mainly a gallery - subs out his framing.

His problem, apparently, was the internet - people would come in, see what's new, see what the prices are - then go find them on line for less.

(and bring them here for framing

)

I've always said to people asking about future value 'Buy it because you like it'

Some modern/new artists have instant secondary market value - such as Doug Hyde - but he'll go out of fashion - just like many others.

Kay Boyce for instance.

Those that stay the course are few and far between - but they exist - probably won't be published by any of the usual suspects though.

Publishers like DeMontfort - and I like DeMontfort - are hiding prices behind the complete price framed - used to be print only, mounted only or framed.

The prices they charge for 'acid free' mounts and frames with standard glass are, at least in my case - higher than my retail with artcare and CC!

The reason they are after a share of our pie is that their sales are down.

Grahame Case · Post by **Grahame Case** » Mon 19 Nov, 2007 9:13 pm

Roboframer wrote:
The reason they are after a share of our pie is that their sales are down.

and that they can target the retail gallery alot easier with a framed ready to go item..

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Mon 19 Nov, 2007 9:28 pm

Roboframer wrote:The prices they charge for 'acid free' mounts and frames with standard glass are, at least in my case - higher than my retail with artcare and CC!

Has anyone else compared prices with some of the big internet poster/framing sites (alllposters.co.uk and that ilk)? I'd like to know who their "local frameshop" is.... Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the prices they quote may not be as big a bargain to the web shopper as they are making them out to be (especially in the case of mounted prints, as there doesn't appear to be any technical spec for what materials are actually used)?

Steve N · Post by **Steve N** » Tue 20 Nov, 2007 2:04 pm

Hi Guys
The only Limited Edition Prints we see rise in value are the likes of Bansky, which sell for a lot on Ebay. We have customers coming in with a print that they have had for a while and say "This is worth £7,000, seen it sell on Ebay, only paid £80.00 two years ago" Little do they realize that it is supply and demand, it was just what somebody was willing to pay at that time. If there was 10 of those prints offered for sell on Ebay the price would have been a lot lower. Also if somebody put their print up for sell the day after a high price is paid for one, it's not going to sell for as much as the one before went for, so does that mean the one that went for a lot has been devalued, because the second print went for a lot less?
Also there are rummers about friends bidding to drive the price up, if they end up buying it's only the commission they are out of pocket, because they put it back up for sell within a month.
Sorry to go on, I think I might be a little cynical.

Steve N

Bill Henry · Post by **Bill Henry** » Tue 20 Nov, 2007 4:42 pm

I think there is a market for Taylor prints if you can find the right venue. A good customer of mine is a fanatic about aviation art and scoffs up everything he can find (although he hides most of his stuff from his wife). He has paid up to $1800 for a Taylor which had been signed by several of the pilots in the print.

I don’t know how valuable this Ask Art site might be, but you may try playing around in it to see if you come up with anything useful.

Post by **prospero** » Tue 20 Nov, 2007 4:59 pm

I think what killed the LE market was greedy publishers. At one time a new David Shepherd print was an event. Prob was that they were such phenomenal money makers that S&W kept issuing them with increasing frequency until you had barely got one framed before the next one came out. Anyone remember 'Burning Bright'? (Tiger) Really nice print. It went
down extremely well and fetched good sec prices. So well in fact that it was wall-to-wall tigers shortly afterwards. All this served to do was to dilute interest with the buying public and it has to be said that some of the follow-ups were definately barrel-scrapers.

RobinC · Post by **RobinC** » Tue 20 Nov, 2007 5:35 pm

My limited edition sales for the last 12 months are just over 40% up on the previous 12 months, so I don't understand why people are saying that the limited edition print market has been killed off. In fact we have virtually dropped all open edition prints. We have found that when selling an expensive limited edition the customer is more likely to spend on a higher price frame, so there is more profit from the framing. In our experience, the internet has affected sales of cheaper prints. Couple this with ever increasing carriage charges and it becomes less viable to spend time looking for a low price print - very time consuming and not a lot of money. I agree with the comments regarding David Shepherd, but is it the publishers or is it the retailers who put over inflated secondary market prices on some of these images.
<p>
We had a competitors gallery 20 odd miles away from us that used to buy up large quantities of Steven Townsend limited edition lithographs that retailed for £100 ish, held onto them until the edition was sold out, and then put them on sale for £800 or more, an dfor a time he was very successful.
<p>
At the moment, limited editions are working well for us, but in the 20 odd years we have been trading the business has constantly moved and it is no different now. The problem I find is that as we become older we get a bit out of touch with what the high spending youngsters want to buy.

Robin

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Tue 20 Nov, 2007 6:47 pm

Sorry to Hi-jack this thread and put a different slant on prints.

I was up in Nottingham last weekend and visited Ikea on the Sunday.

I was just amazed at the number of people walking out of the store with 'canvasses'(?) under their arms. All various sizes.

On a closer inspection of these said pieces of work. To use Robo's expression C A R P. Work stapled to 15mm MDF stretcher bars.

What is even more amazing was that there was such an obvious warp/twist/bow in a lot of these pieces that Robin Hood's longbow on full 'draw' would have been put to shame.

However, they were relatively cheap and they were shifting. I was even asked to move as two more pallet loads were moved into position.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Tue 20 Nov, 2007 7:11 pm

RobinC wrote: ...... The problem I find is that as we become older we get a bit out of touch with what the high spending youngsters want to buy.

Robin

Too true

daviddeer · Post by **daviddeer** » Tue 20 Nov, 2007 9:59 pm

prospero wrote:I think 'limited edition' prints have definately had their day.

A lot depends on the demand, i.e. where they are sold. At specialist outlets such as Golf & Race Courses and sporting events these limited editions still enjoy a good turnover. I should know I sell them. The major problem at the moment is the US, where a limited edition can come in 20 sizes! When we say a limited edition here we mean just that.
I welcome 'Ebay wall art', it just makes the better pieces worth more. Everyone is jumping on the cheap Giclée bandwagon and that too will become saturated with artists (and anyone with a few quid to spare) putting everything on printed canvas almost before the paint has dried on the original (oops! the US has beat us too it once again).
People who seriously buy limited edition prints do so because they like the image. Seldom does the resale value come into the equation or the conversation. An artist friend recently received an Email from someone he did a quick pastel drawing for about 20 years ago. It said, "now that you are famous, is it worth anything". So much for art appreciation.
I suppose we could compare the work of professional gilders and cheap picture framers. Why would anyone want to spend £2-3,000 on a Gesso and Gilt frame when they can have one made round the corner for a couple of hundred quid? You could spend hours explaining it to the client but in the end you can't argue with ignorance.
Society is becoming more Tesco than Saville Row, pile it high, sell it cheap and make a quick profit.
I for one prefer to sell Rembrants rather than Joe Bloggs, but hell what do I know. Cater for the market before you, buy in swept frames and ready mades, stretch Chinese originals, Superglue Tapestries to MDF and glue dot promotional posters to cardboard, finish them off with surplus greenhouse glass and the money will come rolling in.
I'm off now to remove my tongue from my cheek.

Post by **prospero** » Wed 21 Nov, 2007 12:30 am

I think that much of the marketing strategy re LE prints is the fact that an OE is not going to sell vast quanties anyway so why not make it limited and charge 10X as much. This is true for about 99% of all publications. Only the 'big guns' will sell out their editions. I was told once by 'someone who knows'

that most LEs sell only about 20% of the numbers. That's the publishers target, any more is a bonus.

Also there is the question of the edition size. The FATG covention was (is?)
850 but this amount went by the wayside years ago. The sort of rubbish you see in the Sunday supplements go to 5000. No way are they going to sell anything like this amount, but hell, they don't need to. The LE tag is just a selling point.

Then there is the US practice of pre-ordering to a deadline and printing only the amount ordered. Nice work if you can get it.

I remember a Bev Doolittle print running to 69000: all sold before it went to press. (Imagine signing that lot in one go

)

RobinC · Post by **RobinC** » Wed 21 Nov, 2007 10:22 am

I am reasonable pleased (at the moment) with the way De Montfort and Washington Green have reduced their edition sizes to usually less than 200 and are trying to control the product being sold at discounted prices. We sell the main benefit of buying a limited edition is that you are not going to see it all over Ikea and Wilkinsons Hardware. In fact we do sell a range of lower priced canvas art for up to £100 but we have had some returned because the customer saw something similar in Wilkinsons. She wasnt worried about the price (in fact she bought a £350 LE instead) but she didnt want her friend to see her with a picture on the wall that may have come from Wilkinsons.

We started as a franchised branch in 1988 of a chain whose marketing plan was to sell chinese canvases and open edition prints - and it was very successful for a few years, but as we learned about the business we wanted to sell something more credible than chinese mass produced art. Fortunately the franchisor went bust in the early 90's recession and we were then able to do as we pleased.However, we occasionally have some of the paintings returned for reframing and although they are now 15 to 20 years old there is little evidence of fading and the customers are generally very happy with them. At this time if the year we would be paying out loads of overtime to have mountains of canvases stretched and loads of £15 prints framed ready for Christmas. We were selling a 24 by 48 canvas in a Taiwanese swept frame for just under £200. Now, 20 years later, we are selling limited editions of 95 copies framed for £400. More work has probably gone into the print than had gone into the original. Now, we are doing more business with much less stress, the only problem is that if we have a quiet day it is very quiet, but when we have a good day it is excellent.
On a slightly off topic point - is anybody still buying from Rosensteils we never see a rep or get any communication from them now and they used to be one of our biggest suppliers.

Robin