The Framers Forum

I ordered a couple of Lion's chevrons for a bit of an experiment; their samples used to be good for that, this is unfinished black walnut. So this turned up. Which I think is fit only for the bin - for all that it was only 50p for £2-worth of moulding. It may not be obvious from the picture, but the two bits of moulding aren't even level, let alone the mis-placed wedge that has opened up the joint.

James.

Can you post a pic' of the face edge please?

Peter

I think it may be a bit unfair to be too critical about the reverse face of the moulding, since you would normally expect to tape over the reverse face of the frame. What's the front look like? Black walnut can be one of the more difficult mouldings to cut and join.

This is happening a lot lately, the other day open a brand new pack of moulding (NOT Lion) , cut a whole frame from one length of moulding , came to join it, it was all different heights at each corners , some as much 1.5mm difference, couldn't find two bits that were the same hight, so was faced with lining them up on the front face. The rest of the 3 lengths in the pack were the same , not the only time it's happened, either with this supplier or others, quality of machining moulding has gone down a hell of a long way, since I first started framing nearly 30 years ago

NYAF wrote
"I think it may be a bit unfair to be too critical about the reverse face of the moulding, since you would normally expect to tape over the reverse face of the frame. "

Well I got a couple of customers that inspect each mitre , front and back , they are real PITA

Not your average framer wrote:I think it may be a bit unfair to be too critical about the reverse face of the moulding.

The front face is an un-level as the back face, unsurprisingly! It just photographs more clearly on the back and shows the whacking great gap at the outside better.

Moreover, being unfinished, I want to sand it, and it's a right pain to do this once its joined. And another thing, I want to glue the joint. Retrograde step, IMO.

Steve N wrote:This is happening a lot lately, the other day open a brand new pack of moulding (NOT Lion) , cut a whole frame from one length of moulding , came to join it, it was all different heights at each corners , some as much 1.5mm difference, couldn't find two bits that were the same hight, so was faced with lining them up on the front face. The rest of the 3 lengths in the pack were the same , not the only time it's happened, either with this supplier or others, quality of machining moulding has gone down a hell of a long way, since I first started framing nearly 30 years ago

This is becoming a huge problem and getting worse, I'm getting alot more waste because of it.
Some changes needed.

Never used walnut but I think suspect it's quite hard (?)

That gapping is symptomatic of insufficient pressure on a hard moulding. What happens is
the vnail lifts the two halfs before it starts to penetrate, thus introducing a gap. As the vnail
goes in it pulls the face together but can't close the back gap. Oak does similar if you don't hold
it down very firmly.

I think maybe making samples is a case of "it'll do".

Jamesnkr wrote:The front face is an un-level as the back face, unsurprisingly! It just photographs more clearly on the back and shows the whacking great gap at the outside better.

Moreover, being unfinished, I want to sand it, and it's a right pain to do this once its joined. And another thing, I want to glue the joint. Retrograde step, IMO.

Sorry for my earlier comment, I had no idea it was as bad as that. I quite often end up sanding Oak and ash mouldings myself, but there are time when I can avoid this by careful placing of the wedges. I'm really surprised by the variations in thickness at the mitre, while I admit that I have encountered this myself on oak mouldings once in a while, I usually manage to bash the reverse surface off the moulding to at least get the front face reasonably flush and then sand it flat.

I can't always be sure that things don't match up because of variations between mouldings that I had purchased at different times, as I do my best to match up bits from different lengths of moulding to get the best match of colour and grain on each frame. I don't mind having a certain amount of left over bits as I can still use them for RMF's and match them up using my detail sander on the back of each mitre.

My CS-88 has been adjusted to fire the wedges below flush so using a power sander on the reverse face doesn't prove to be a problem. I would never try to sell any frame which does not come up to scratch, but so far this process has worked well. However the differences between different moulding batch are usually not to serious, I think that bigger differences would cause more serious problems, particularly as sanding oak even with a power sander does not remove surplus wood particularly quickly.

I seem to have confused people; apologies. There is nothing wrong with the moulding. But everything wrong with the joining as you can see below. Moreover the moulding has quite a bit of detail on it as you can see here, it needs sanding prior to finishing and to have it pre-joined really doesn't make that easy. The old way, where they sent you two square-cut six-inch pieces was much better. Moreover you got to see how it cut on the Morso.

Would you let this out of your workshop?

In these days of computerised equipment and quality control, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect two lengths of moulding to be the same, which they often aren't, but when there's variation in the same length, as is sometimes the case, you start wishing you could vote with your feet. I don't mean the distributor as it's not their fault, but I wish there was a way of knowing whether it was one particular manufacturer which was lax on quality control, or whether it's across the board. It won't happen, but it would be useful if the distributors would identify which manufacturer each moulding was from. It wouldn't be necessary to reveal the names, but they could use a code so that if it turned out that Mfr X was worse than the others, they could be boycotted until they improved their quality. But the distributors wouldn't want one of their suppliers to be boycotted so it won't happen and some manufacturers will continue to churn out mouldings which don't appear to have been through a quality control check.

I'm open to correction, but your getting a chevron/Sample that would cost approx £4.00 in material (not including labour) for .50p

I expect these are made in batches at speed.

other suppliers (you know who they are) would charge you 1M List Price for a chevron = £ 7.52 for the same sample
In that case I would think your criticism would be justified.


I have no association with Lion, other than being a happy customer

absolute framing wrote:I'm open to correction, but your getting a chevron/Sample that would cost approx £4.00 in material (not including labour) for .50p

Whilst obviously you are factually correct... to look at it the other way round, you're paying out 50p for something that is fit only for the bin where the labour has reduced its value.

Lion is a supplier that tries very hard to be amounst those who are known for setting the standard. They are not a slip shod organisation. I imagine that they are horrified that a sample like that was allowed to go to a customer, but sometimes these things happen.

You need to ask for a replacement, I'm sure that Lion will be happy to send you a perfect chevron by return of post. Normal procedure in cases like this should be to try to resolve any problems between yourself and the supplier before naming them on the forum.

Seeing the moulding properly I can see why there are issues with this joining. It would clearly be difficult with the profile to join further in toward the rebate with any meaningful depth of wedge and of course going further to the chunky bit of the moulding would open out the rear of the joint.

This looks like a good job for a Hoffman

I suspect the pieces of moulding used to make the Chevron are from two separate batches one left one right that would give you the problems you see on the picture.

IFGL the two bits of moulding are (almost certainly) from the same batch. I bought two identical chevrons. They are both similarly wonkily assembled. Operator incompetence and a lack of quality control! The saw cuts on the outer edges of the chevrons are as rough as anything too. I much prefer being supplied with samples and making my own chevrons.