Angled CMCs

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 6:10 pm

Does anyone use their CMC wall mounted or at an angle.

Some people seem to advice against using CMCs at an angle of, say, 45° or more but I notice that Wizard (and maybe others) offer a wall mounting kit.

I have very limited space - 1750 mm x 750 mm - and I'm wondering if a wall-mounted CMC would be a viable solution.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 6:18 pm

The main problem is dropouts, but I presume a vacuum clamped system would prevent that. Mine is at a slight tilt, just to reclaim an extra 6" of floorspace.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 6:50 pm

Spit wrote:The main problem is dropouts

Dead right - you need a full edumacation to work a CMC thingy.

Grahame Case · Post by **Grahame Case** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 6:58 pm

vacuum systems do have their issues though, you often need a big bit of board for it to hold it properly, making it more difficult to cut using scraps.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 7:46 pm

Roboframer wrote: Dead right - you need a full edumacation to work a CMC thingy.

Rubbish! I can operate one!

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 7:55 pm

Should have said. I'm going for a bottom-of-the-range CMC so a vacuum bed is unlikely.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 8:03 pm

Have a look at my recent images.

Our CMC is mounted about 30 degrees.

Yes some do recommend up to 45 degrees, but I would be worried that the fall outs would fall out and get in the way of the cutting head.

Grahame Case · Post by **Grahame Case** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 8:19 pm

WelshFramer wrote:Should have said. I'm going for a bottom-of-the-range CMC so a vacuum bed is unlikely.

best to look at which holding system causes less waste, button clamps (a 'la Gunnar 601) or pneumatic arms (all Valiani's except the future, the Gunnar F1 or the wizards)

if your serious about making the switch to a CMC it is probably an idea to get one that'll cut larger boards, E.G. the Gunnar F1 XL, that way you don't have to have the hand mount cutter lying around and can free some desk space.

although your space may not allow it.

in more CMC related news today, have been looking into arranging finance for impending purchase, we need to tighten the purse strings it looks like, or i'm going to be working for free!

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 8:28 pm

Grahame Case wrote: in more CMC related news today, have been looking into arranging finance for impending purchase, we need to tighten the purse strings it looks like, or i'm going to be working for free!

I'm thinking it might be sensible to rent a machine. Gunnar allow 60% of the rent over the first 5 years off the price and Wizard seem to offer a rent-to-buy option.

That way I can change the machine whenever I want if I find the one I have isn't suitable or a better one comes on the market and maintenance is taken care of.

Trucut don't offer a rent-to-buy option (just leasing through a 3rd party) and we've yet to find out what the Valiani offers will be like.

Grahame Case · Post by **Grahame Case** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 8:35 pm

that may be a wise choice, and one we are looking at when we go down to Birmingham,

however, we've also been offered Hire Purchase by our bank at a flat 4.4 percent, (an extra £720 on £18,000))
its a case of seeing who can give us the best deal at the end of the day, and if it is of any long term value to own one.

Mike, have you got any preferences as far as machines go?

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 8:53 pm

Grahame Case wrote:Hire Purchase by our bank at a flat 4.4 percent, (an extra £720 on £18,000))
its a case of seeing who can give us the best deal at the end of the day, and if it is of any long term value to own one.

It would be well worth you while to consult your tax accountant to find out not only what give you the most favourable interest rate, but also the best tax advantage!

Obviously your tax system is different to ours, but when I did this, I discovered that there was one type of finance -'chattel mortgage'- that was more advantageous than other types.

Mary Case GCF · Post by **Mary Case GCF** » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 10:05 pm

Thanks Ormond. I'll get on to that in the morning. I want to be armed with the funding when I go to Spring Fair, just in case there are any bargains going.
Mary

Jared Davis CPF, GCF · Fri 11 Jan, 2008 8:02 am

Hi Mike,

A Gunnar F1-M is available in a small size which would probably fit within the dimensions you listed? The max sheet cut size on this model is 36" x 48".

F1's can be wall mounted as a standard feature of the configurable stand which is included.

However, angled & wall mounted operation poses an issue though - gravity!

Thanks to Issac Newton "inventing" gravity with an apple in the late 1600's

- matboard fallouts like to slip down the table as they are cut, which is a bit of a pain for mulitple opening cuts.

There are a number of less than ideal "workarounds" for this issue, none of which beat the "horizontal table operation" option, which allows the operator to confidentally "turn their back" and remain productive while the machine is autonomously cutting.

However, workshop "real estate" may be rare for some framers, thus a wall mount may be the only option? - but be prepared to stand at the machine and play "catch the fallout"...

Gunnar have developed a pretty cool system in the software to avoid fallout issues with wall mounted machines - maybe you could ask about it at the show?

Cheers,

Jared

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Fri 11 Jan, 2008 8:16 am

Grahame Case wrote:Mike, have you got any preferences as far as machines go?

Not yet.

The new Trucut sounds interesting but is around £2000 more than the Wizard and I probably don't need the benefits of its speed and rugged quality for the volume I'll be doing. Also, Trucut don't offer a rental option.

The Gunnar F1 is on the list. Slightly more expensive than the Wizard but the rental system avoids VAT (though if you're VAT registered I imagine that's no benefit).

The Wizard seems to be the cheapest of the three.

I get the feeling that there's not much to choose between them -- they each have their selling points but they all get the job done.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Fri 11 Jan, 2008 8:19 am

Jared Davis CPF, GCF wrote:Hi Mike,

F1's can be wall mounted as a standard feature of the configurable stand which is included.

I was talking to Gunnar of the phone and they suggested wall mounting wasn't sensible (odd since, as you say, they offer a wall mounting option). I was told that cutting should be done from the back for better results and the cutouts would slip down under the mat.

Interesting about the software option that they didn't mention.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Fri 11 Jan, 2008 9:03 am

For what it's worth, having seen another framer use a Valiani at a fairly steep angle, in my initial enquiries to Richard the Valiani fellow (can't remember his surname - sorry!), I said that I would prefer to go for the aforementioned option rather than the near horizontal configuration shown on the Valiani brochures, and he strongly advised me against the "upright" approach.

markw · Post by **markw** » Fri 11 Jan, 2008 9:36 am

Moglet wrote:For what it's worth, having seen another framer use a Valiani at a fairly steep angle, in my initial enquiries to Richard the Valiani fellow (can't remember his surname - sorry!), I said that I would prefer to go for the aforementioned option rather than the near horizontal configuration shown on the Valiani brochures, and he strongly advised me against the "upright" approach.

Richard's (Winkworth) advice is wise. As the head hits the bed it causes some of the cut outs to jump - when the bed is at a steep angle they slide out and potentially into the path of the next cut. This is obviously a problem when cutting face up - no problem face down.

My Valiani is at a relatively shallow angle and on most cutting jobs causes no problems - I would keep an eye on it when cutting small multiple apertures as they can jump.