Pricing Pricing Pricing, I'm going Insane!!!!

[Johnny9]

Guys,

as a fairly new newbie, I have asked many sometimes stupid sounding questions, but received many helpful answers from you guys, so here seems one of the big problems facing framers, How Much to Charge???

I have read through most of the previous questions & answers from new & old framers about how they price, but still it leaves me confused, I met John at the Spring fair recently & he showed me his Estlite software, which seemed really clever, but maybe a bit complicated for me....
So I have decided that I may want to price for my time/labour, rather than 3 times the cost of the materials, so here is my problem, how much is my time/labour worth????

This is how I would charge for a frame regardless of size.... (guessing actual prices of materials, but it gives an idea of cost of materials).

Examples...

Cost of Moulding used including waste £15
Cost of Mount board used £2.00
Cost of Glass used £3.00
Cost of Artbak used £1.50
Fixing/sundries £1.00

Materials Total £22.50

How much would you charge?


Cost of Moulding used including waste £30
Cost of Mount board used £4.00
Cost of Glass used £5.00
Cost of Artbak used £1.50
Fixing/sundries £1.00

Materials Total £41.50

How much would you charge?

Or would you charge the cost of the materials used & then a set cost for each size frame....

Example

7 x 5 =

10 x 12 =

16 x 16 =

24 x 24 =

36 x 36 =

How much guys, just for your time to contruct these frames, the add cost of materials....

As you can see by this badly constructed message, I really don't have a clue, I've only up till now framed for home, friend & family, and yes I've not charged them much, but now I have orders coming in & want to make a profit, but not scare away customers....

Anyway that's me done, please Help

Johnny.

[The Crofter]

There have been many posts on the subject of pricing so probably worth a search as well.

However from my point of view...

I looked at ways of pricing last year and decided not to use time as the main factor. The reason is that I will never be busy all day and everyday. Also, if I am feeling slack, I may take a lot longer over a job than the standard 30 or 60 minutes.

It is vital that I am making a profit on the materials so I use a markup list for all areas. Each item such as moulding, backing etc is marked up to an extent that covers the initial cost (including shipping) and potential waste. Then the profit markup is added.

My program (written from the gound up in Filemaker) makes all these calculations for me and produces a final figure for the job price. EstLite will do this for you as well and it takes all the hassle out of price calculations. It will also ensure that you provide consistent quotes, which customers like, instead of conjuring up numbers.

Using a markup system also allows you to fine tune your prices to reflect the what the local market will pay and still remain competative. My system also allows incorporates a field called "Artwork" and I use this to add value to the job when making small frames. This is the only occasion a time factor is included as it can take as long to make a small (non time profitable) frame as it does to make a larger one.

[markw]

There are a few threads where some of us have given our pricing based upon cost of materials - I would look at those and decide where the average point lies and use this as a guide.

There are some good publications that can be a useful guide to pricing and other basics of starting up a business. see the Fine Art Trade Guild for a list of publications.

Invest in a training course. Any good course should cover how you price a job. You have to have the confidence in your ability to charge a realistic rate - not what you think you can get away with. If you have any ability as a framer then you should be expecting your customers to pay for your skill and expertise - If your an untrained amateur experimenting on your customers work then your probably going to be aiming low with your pricing.

[prospero]

You should take time to work out your overheads for a year. That's every cost inncurred in the course of your business. Rates/power/phone/stationary/advertising. Tea/coffee/sausage rolls. The whole nine yards. Omit nothing. Then divide this figure by the number of hours you would ideally like to work in a year. (not what you actually work) This is your hourly running costs. Then decide what you want to pay yourself per hour and add this to the running costs. This is your hourly labour charge.
Remember that being self-employed means you don't get paid holidays or time and a half for overtime.

[markw]

Remember that being self-employed means you don't get paid holidays or time and a half for overtime.

Bugger - I've just taken the weekend off and was going to put in some extra hours next week..

[Johnny9]

Guys,

I class the work I have produced for family & friends to be of a high standard (ouch my head) I have a artist in the family who uses a well recomended framer & he has said my first frames I have produced as as high a standard as theirs... I finished my apprintiship in joinery, so I'm quite handy with wood & fixings, so have found framing in my skills, but have also found it very rewarding when you see the finished product. I am also using conservation products as standard, I opened a frame for a friend & have seen the damage MDF can do on a bare print... So I Always advise conservation products....

But I want to now progress into it becoming my full time work, so I want to make as good a profit as I can, while providing a excellent product...

I feel the finished product can be fantastic, so I feel a high profit is available...

I was thinking of, if the cost of the materials was £22.50, I would charge £57.50, and if materials were £41.50, I would charge £76.50, which would be say £35 per hour, which would include conservation mount, Artbak backing, 2mm float glass, fixings, bumpers & wrapping...
Also would include a free delivery within 5 miles, delivery charges on top if outside that....

Also I'm doing mirrors, but would charge much more for those, if the materials were say £40, I would be charging at least £100, more if the moulding looked more dramatic, I'm also eventually going to provide my own rustic/reclaimed wood look mouldings, which would be more expensive, say up to £200.... I feel people are more likely to pay more for mirrors, so my pricing would show that.... Views..

[Moglet]

Hi Johnny.

how much is my time/labour worth????

You can get advice and guidance from posts here and on The Grumble, Johnny, but ultimately it's only yourself that can set this figure, as your own business circumstances are unique to yourself. Of critical importance is the need to determine all of your operating costs when setting your shop hourly rate. For example, a framer operating from a home-based garage workshop may not have to consider the costs associated with renting a premises, but instead may need to factor in what percentage of their mortgage goes to the square footage of the garage.

Per some of the posts on this forum, working on a flat-rate markup for all frames regardless of size, you may find that you are not making any money on smaller jobs, particularly ones with a low-cost moulding. For example, when comparing the making of a frame with a single mount, there is not that much difference in the labour component between a 10 x 8" and a 16 x 20" frame.

Regardless of how you finally decide to price general work, you need to determine your hourly rate in order to price jobs such as object frames accurately, as the labour component in trickier jobs becomes much more significant compared to the likes of framing, say, a family photo portrait with a basic single mount.

Cost of Moulding used including waste* £15
Cost of Mount board used £2.00
Cost of Glass used £3.00
Cost of Artbak used £1.50
Fixing/sundries £1.00

* (emphasis mine)

You also need to consider waste for materials other than moulding in your pricing structure.

... as a fairly new newbie.... here seems one of the big problems facing framers, How Much to Charge???

I really don't have a clue... now I have orders coming in & want to make a profit, but not scare away customers....

I met John at the Spring fair recently & he showed me his Estlite software, which seemed really clever, but maybe a bit complicated for me....

As I've said before on the Forum, I wish that I had had a decent POS system when I first started out - would have saved me money time and again. POS systems offer the following key benefits:

* Pricing for profit from Day 1.

* Reduces time at design counter.

* More accurate pricing (a tremendous help for framing younglings!).

* Less customer resistance to quoted prices (computer says 'Yes!').

* Pays for itself in very short order!

With EstLite in particular, Johnny, it may seem a little complicated to you at first, but it is extremely easy to use.

Hope this is helpful to you!

[absolute framing]

Hi,

You can include labour using the EstLite Program.
There is a minimum frame price + min charges for glass, mount and fixings.
Labour would be pretty similar from frame to frame.

ie : 8 x 10 or 16 x20

Cut and assemble frame - Time is the same
Cut Mount and Hinge - Time is the same
Cut and clean glass - time is the same
Final fit, backing board, tape, cord - time is the same

So with EstLite you will make 3 x cost for materials (or whaterer your mark up is)
and your fixed labour charges.

I would advise you to look into getting a pricing program again

[Johnny9]

Moglet,

Really helpful, I understand it's down to me & my circumstances really, John did very kindly show me the Estlite software & people have said it is ver good & easy to use, but still it seemed a bit too complicated to little old me!!! I'm not stupid, but find it difficult to get in my head.....

Still a little lost on my next move.....

[Not your average framer]

Hi Johnny,

All my prices are based upon on straight mark-up of the cost of materials as they appear on my chart. I don't make any calculations for waste or time taken, the mark-up takes care of all that. My chart has a few added twists such as the mark-up for sheet materials varies with size, etc.

The price band for a particular moulding does not mean that the band assigned to it necessarily reflects the cost. If a particular moulding will stand a higher mark-up then that's what it gets.

Be aware that most framers are too timid when the first start in business and are frightened of charging a proper price for what they do. It's not an easy thing to get right at first. Be prepared to fine tune things as you go on.

[Johnny9]

Thanks Stephen,

I may look again at prising software, maybe I just want somebody to wave a magic wand & my pricing problems will disappear, I probably will look again at pricing software, and I know you guys will help me as you have time & again.... Also John offered any help I need.... But I'm good at making the stuff, not too good at pricing, it's that multi-tasking stuff again that my wife says I'm rubbish at!!!!!

what does POS exactly mean????

[Johnny9]

Not your average framer,

I'm finding that now, want the best price, but not too high.....

[Johnny9]

guy's

Is the mark up route the best way???????

[osgood]

Johnny,
You have been given some great advice here, especially from Prospero and Moglet! You should take that advice and use it wisely if you want to come up with a system that will give you the profit you want and that will not shock your customers into having a heart attack.

If you think that Estlite is too complicated for you, then you are not approaching pricing with the attention it deserves. Pricing is complicated and needs to be done correctly. It's not much good being a great framer if you can't handle the 'business' part of your business.

Any pricing system needs to take into account all your business costs and the time you estimate you will be working annually and the profit you wish to make.

I don't think there is much value in posting lists of numbers in the hope that people here will say 'Yes, Johnny, that's about right'. That won't work for you. You have to put in the time and crunch the numbers yourself. Other people don't know what your business expenses are and they will be different for each of us.

Estlite will make pricing easier for you! 120 quid or even 450 quid is a pittance to pay for pricing software that will make life easy for you!

I love the 'Nike' slogan: "Just Do It".

[Not your average framer]

I'm not stupid, but find it difficult to get in my head.....

Still a little lost on my next move.....

Johnny, you are not alone in this, it is difficult to understand at first.

It's a bit of a step of faith, if you decide to go for Estlite, take some advice from others on your mark-up and set-up Estlite accordingly. O.K., you can't get your head around it, but it works! As time goes on, you can make any necessary adjustments.

It takes time to get these things right. Make sure that you pick plenty of mouldings which will stand a really good mark-up and set their prices accordingly.

[The Crofter]

Johnny9,
EstLite is available as a trial download. I would imagine that if you take your time and just work through the features then you will get to grips with it very quickly. It is not a complex program and whatever you end up with you will have to get to grips with some software at some point.

[Moglet]

what does POS exactly mean????

It's an acronym for Point Of Sale.

I may look again at prising software, maybe I just want somebody to wave a magic wand & my pricing problems will disappear

Might not be what you want to hear, but a POS pricing system is the nearest thing to a magic wand going, IMO. That said, as Mark (NYAF) wisely comments above, there will always be the need for fine tuning, but a ready-to-go pricing system will give your business a phenomenal boost, particularly in the early days, and once you are familiar with the system of your choice, pricing tweaks will be very straightforward. Also, it will free up your time to do more framing!

I can appreciate your reservations about 'complexity' of computer-based pricing systems, but perhaps if you look at it in terms of ....

"short but unpleasant learning curve = pricing magic wand!"

... it might encourage you to take a second look? And ask John more about Estlite. I've every confidence he'll be able to help you!

[Not your average framer]

guy's

Is the mark up route the best way???????

There will always be those who use just a straight mark-up and those who will want to have a separate labour charge element. Both methods are workable!

Both methods are possible with Estlite or with a price chart. Estlite can be loaded on to your computer and ready to use extremely quickly, Producing your own price chart requires more time, effort and thinking / understanding.

Your choice!

[Johnny9]

Moglet, Not your average framer, The Crofter, prospero & the rest

Once again guys you help & kind words come up trumps, i feel a little better knowing you guys too have had some on the things I'm talking about.....

I'll try the free download & try all you have said, I do like the sound of setting it up and then it being easier using software, it's not like I'm scared of computers, it's just I wanna get this right, right from day one...
And from what I've read on here it is one of the hardest things to get right........

[Johnny9]

So when you set up estlite, do you pick a selection of mouldings you want to use or all mouldings from the main/your supplier?