The Framers Forum

Hi, I am new to the forum, this is my first post. I have a big problem. Please handle me with kid gloves.

I live in Ontario, Canada. I am a longtime photographer. In the past I have always gotten a professional framer to custom mount and frame my work. However, I recently agreed to an exhibit, and thought I would bite the bullet and frame the show myself.

I bought the Logan Graphics "system" that included a Studio Joiner (v-nail press) plus the longest v-nails that the dealer sold with the press. These picture frame v-nails are 3/8" (10 mm) for soft wood.

I viewed the instruction DVD with the press.

Logan instructions say the v-nail should be "at least half as long as the thickness of the frame moulding."

The thickness of the frame moulding is 1-1/4" (32 mm).

"At least half" of 32 mm would mean a minimum of 5/8" (16 mm).

I contacted my dealer in Canada (Lee Valley Tools -- a big woodworking chain up here) and they told me they don't carry v-nails longer than 10 mm (and told me my query was the first time they'd heard it).

I contacted Logan, and their rep told me the longest v-nail they manufacture is 12 mm. According to their own instructions that's still too short. They too, told me this was the first time they'd heard the query, said it was certainly a problem, but they didn't know what to do (huh??!!).

Getting a narrower frame moulding is out of the question; I have already cut mitred corners on 440 feet of frame moulding, and there's no way I can afford the funds or time to replace that.

I tried all the local big-box hardware stores up here (Home Depot, Home Hardware, Canadian Tire) and not found v-nails anywhere.

What do I do?

I have searched online and seen Cassese v-nail cartridges. Would they work with the Logan v-nail press? Can they be emptied out of their cartridges and slotted manually on the Logan press? Would they fit? Or can those only be used with a Cassese system?

And-and-all assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

Hey Billy Bob,

Welcome to the Grumble, … or The Forum, … or, wherever we are.

Pistorius (another V-nailer company) makes nails in 1/8”, 1/4”, 3/8”, 1/2” and 5/8” varieties both for soft and hard woods.

I don’t know offhand whether they would fit your Studio Joiner, though.

You are not likely to find such specialty V-nails at a big box store.

If you glue and clamp the moulding well enough before you pin it, the longest nail you have available should do well enough. For the most part it is the glue that provides the best bond anyway.

Can you stack two smaller nails, say 7mm X 2 giving a total of 14mm??

Others have had good luck stacking V-nails, but not me.

As often as not, instead of them stacking, the second nail simply slips next to the first one and ends up splitting the wood.

Hi Billy Bob and welcome to you.

As Robbie said above, it is possible (and fairly common practice) to 'stack'
v-nails into deeper profiles, so in theory you should be able to stack 2x10mm wedges into your 32mm mouldings. I'm not familiar with the equipment you're using to pin the mitres, but another member may be and could let you know about how well the Studio Joiner may cope with stacking v-nails.

The level of success with stacking can depend on the type of wood, the positioning of the "pinning points" (particularly with relation to the outer edge of the moulding), and - to a degree - the shape of the profile. It may help us to advise you better if you can let us know:

1 - Is the profile flat? If not, can you let us know the shape.

2. What type of wood is it?

3. You advise that the height is 32mm. How wide is the profile?

I have a studio joiner, and you won't stack v-nails with that. You can use other makes of v-nail, I used the alfamaccine/minigraf sticks, just pulled one off at a time with no problem. You can get 15mm wedges in that range.

If you're doing a tall profile, use the biggest wedge you can and clamp the tops of the moulding with a band clamp until the glue dries.

Moglet wrote:
1 - Is the profile flat? If not, can you let us know the shape.

Flat.

2. What type of wood is it?

Not sure. It's a soft wood. Made by "FrameGuild" No. 590-03.

3. You advise that the height is 32mm. How wide is the profile?

3/4-inch.

Thanks.

Hi
I agree with SPIT.. (for goodness sake can someone get him a beer!)
I used a logan studio joiner and it has it's limits, stacking being one of them, don't even try it. I used the universal V nails available from LION here in the UK, they are available in 15mm and are what I would use in your situation. They come in strips and are easily seperated with a thumbnail.

Steve G

Welcome Billy Bob.

If your frames are not too big (<approx12x16) you may be OK with 10mm v-nails. (Despite manufacturers instructions). Even if they are bigger it still might be OK if you put a number of them in laterally. Don't be tempted to put too many in close together though or it will tend to weaken the joint rather than make it stronger. On a two-inch wide moulding, four is enough.

It's the glue that is the strength of the join. The v-nails are mainly there hold it all together until the glue sets. Also they prevent catastrophic failure should the glue fail due to physical strains or shocks. If this happens the depth of the v-nail would not have much effect. The joints will start to open up slightly, but at least the frame won't fall apart.

Hope that's some help.

prospero wrote:Welcome Billy Bob.

If your frames are not too big (<approx12x16) you may be OK with 10mm v-nails. (Despite manufacturers instructions). Even if they are bigger it still might be OK if you put a number of them in laterally. Don't be tempted to put too many in close together though or it will tend to weaken the joint rather than make it stronger. On a two-inch wide moulding, four is enough.

The frames are all different sizes, but most of the dimensions are approx. 54 inches x 24 inches. I will reinforce stringing wire vertically, but with a big load like that I want the mitered bond to be especially strong.

The FrameGuild mould is "finished" soft wood -- looks like some sort of veneer -- but I am wondering if perhaps instead of using the v-nails whether I should use brad nails, counter-sink and fill, but unsure what sort of results I'll get on the finished wood. Good or bad idea...?

Use both! The vnails will hold the bottom together, and while the moulding is still in the clamp you can knock in a couple of brads near the top. There are quick setting glues you can use too, which will help on a manual underpinner.

I've always worked on the assumption that the glue will hold the joint together and the v-nail is there to hold it together while the glue dries - as well as being a backup in case the glue joint breaks.

I don't think I've ever used a nail longer than 10mm and, so far, nobody's brought a frame back because the joints have failed.

If you can get enough depth of V-nails into the frame, another possibility is to use an extra strong wood glue. There are some really strong wood glues available from boat building suppliers.

I've not had to do this myself, but I thought I suggest this as a possible smart move!

The glue I am using is called "Titebond III" Ultimate Wood Glue.

The salesman at the woodshop said it was his best.

The manufacturer claims it is "the most advanced wood glue available today." ('Tho I tend to be a natural skeptic of hype.)

The product website here: http://www.titebond.com/WNTitebondIIITB.asp

Does this look like it can hold the load I am putting on it?

...

Secondary question: If I do use brad nails, what can I do to match the "finished" look of the original frame moulding?

.

billy bob tweed wrote: The frames are all different sizes, but most of the dimensions are approx. 54 inches x 24 inches. I will reinforce stringing wire vertically, but with a big load like that I want the mitered bond to be especially strong.

With glass?

Thats a big frame. For extra strength, think about reinforcing the corners with 3" steel 'L' plates.

Assuming you are UK based, Screwfix Direct or Lion Picture Framing stock them. Attach them as soon as you get the frame pinned, before the glue has a chance to cure.

prospero wrote: With glass?

Yes, with glass.

Thats a big frame. For extra strength, think about reinforcing the corners with 3" steel 'L' plates.

Assuming you are UK based, Screwfix Direct or Lion Picture Framing stock them. Attach them as soon as you get the frame pinned, before the glue has a chance to cure.

I'm in Canada, and am not familiar with the brand names, but think I have an idea what you are talking about. Are these specialized framing items, or something I should be able to pick up at a hardware store?

They are not made for framing exclusively. They are just flat corners stamped out of about 1/8" guage steel with three screw holes in each 'leg'.
Should not be difficult to find in any hardware store, but try to get them in bulk packs rather than bubble packed in 2s. Much cheaper.

btw. If you use licky-sticky tape over them, give them a spray with cellulose primer ot they can develop surface rust.

billy bob tweed wrote: The frames are all different sizes, but most of the dimensions are approx. 54 inches x 24 inches. I will reinforce stringing wire vertically, but with a big load like that I want the mitered bond to be especially strong.

Billy Bob,
A frame that size will need to have glass at least 3mm and even better 4mm thick. It will be quite heavy and the corners will need to be joined very well.

I'm not sure that a product such as the Logan studio joiner is suitable for anything but very small frames. I know I wouldn't want to use it on a frame that size and weight!

You will also need to ensure that the moulding is of sufficient robust size to be suitable for that size frame.

IMHO, you are running quite a risk, when taking on this sort of work yourself, with the current level of framing knowledge you have! Obviously you want to frame your own work to save money, but you will need to be careful with this due to the danger involved with large frames and glass!

My opinion is that you should get these items framed by a "good" framer in your area, preferably a CPF or MCPF, who has had experience with this type of work.

I would tend to agree to some extent with Osgood here. I have been using Logan studio joiner for 2 years now and it has limitations in clamping deep mouldings and joining larger frames. It's been great for small to medium sizes but not the larger dimensions with deep profiles. It doesn't clamp adequatly and as it pushes the frame assembly down onto the pins you can't support the assembly once it's clamped so you can end up with a lot of strain on the freshly made join which will pull it apart.
Instead of having the frames made totally by a pro framer why not speak to your local guy, explain your dilemma and ask if he will just do the joining for you. I've done this before (thanks to Anthony at AllFrame in Dunstable, UK, btw). I offered a fair payment which was declined, so it only cost me a bottle of wine! Go on.. if you don't ask, you won't get! It may even pay you dividends if you can strike up a good relationship with a local shop.