Interesting clues from what Ikea are discontinuing.

[Not your average framer]

Every now and then I have a look at IKEA's website to see what frame sizes are getting discontinued. My assumption goes something like this, if IKEA discontinue certain sizes of frames, maybe it tells you something about what the market is doing. In there Ribba range of frames they appear to be discontinuing quite a lot of the really small and also their square shaped frames. I'm guessing that business for them selling these frames has been falling and these have not been a good sales item for them. It does appear that the Ribba range is a strong favorite with people making things to sell on eBay, so maybe it also tells us something about where the market might be going for people selling things on ebay as well.

I've been thinking about making a few ready made oak frames in one of these sizes. My logic being, if this is a favorite size, then maybe a few oak frames in this same size might be a good move. In this case, I would be using up a particular oak moulding, which I no longer stock and it would be helpful to get it used up. Producing ready made frames from advatageously priced oak moulding tend to work well for me. Oak is very durable, I does not need to be finished for ready made frames, as it's already oak colour and customers are always impressed with anything produced from oak. Some oak mouldings are surprisingly cheap and have some great potential for profit.

[Steve N]

Unfortunately, people who buy these IKEA frames , buy by price , they also like Black or White, so unless you can match the very low price, I wouldn't bother.
Saying that, nearly all my mounts I sell online are for these very frames, so I make a living that way

[Not your average framer]

Hi steve,

Yes I know, but it's a shift in the market. Forgetting abot the cheap end of the market, it's also indicative of what the market may be doing in general. My interpretation is that the market for a lot of these items is dropping off and it can tell us things which maybe useful to us. I think that peple are getting more selective in what they are buying and they are now more likely to spend more carefully for things which will last better that the cheap and cheerful, throw away stuff. I've been making some 6 inch square frames out of off cuts and scraps for a while now, after noticing the demand for 15cm square frames from Ikea, The difference is that quite a reasonable proportion of mine are made of oak and I have realised that 6 inch square frames can be a farly popular size, as a result of what the eBayer's have been telling me. These 6 inch square frames are very quick and easy to make and surprisingly profitable, they are not difficult to sell. One of my custmers has lots of smaller old clockwork toys which he puts in small frames and sells on the internet and he love using my small square oak frames for them.

If Ikea are going to stop selling the 15cm square frames, probably because of rising cost issues, After all small frames and there packing are like to increase shipping weights, for lower value items and they are operating on cut to the bone margins already. Maybe they have got nowhere else to go, with this. The cheap end of the market has got nowhere else to go in the present economy and this may create some useful extra business for us framers. Small ready made frames was the traditional was that framers used to make money from their waste materials, well maybe it's coming back. Just because IKea don't find it worthwhile to sell these smaller frames, does not mean that people will not still want these sizes. These who are willing to pay higher prices, will still want tham and probably some of them will be buying them from us. Today's market is sometimes about spotting oppotunities in a changing market. I been using my waste materials for a lot longer that just in the recent times. It is a lot of what I'm already about, I think about whether it pays me to create lots of waste too small to be usable, or to avoid making too much unusable sized waste.

I've been cultivating connections with other small businesses, who buy some items from me. This includes some "Interior Design" businesses, a well known Dartmoor photographer and various people who are trading from home via the internet. My town is quite a small town and most of us know each other and you do a bit of business with different people and they tell their friends. Networking in a small rural community is not a new thing, it's been happening for centuries, without being planned it's just part of how life is in such small towns. Everyone is helping everyone else and it works! People frequently come to me for mounts for old frames, cuttiing pieces of glass to size, or cutting new backing boards. Artists are trying to use old frames for their paintings, there's really quite a lot going on in small rural towns. Quite a lot of friends mark where they want a piece of wood cut to size and it gets cut on my band saw, this usually is done just for friendship, but one good turn usually deserves another. It does not take long to get into this way of thinking and people like to help you in return. It may not be in cash, but some f them makes lots of jam and give you a few jars of home made jam instead.

[daveym]

this is an interesting post as I am one of those people that was buying a particular square Ribba frame in bulk for some of my artwork. I used to have to go into the store and select these frames as there were a few online resellers that obviously went in store and put these frames on the likes of Amazon and ebay to resell. To be honest, they wern't much more than actually buying from ikea so really don't know how they made any money. The problem I found when buying from resellers is receiving scuffed or broken frames so I ended up going into Ikea myself and hand picked. Many had knocks due to customers handling them instore. I'm not sure if things are different know, but a few years ago it would take 1-2 weeks to receive an order from ikea. It wasn't an overly quick delivery and these days people want something they receive asap especially when they have regular orders coming in. Going in store was a little more convenient for me at the time. The particular Ribba deep box frames I was purchasing also included glass and this added a little weight so as to give the frame that extra bit of quality. Add to that the protective shrinkwrap and you had a nice little frame for around £3.50.

In the last 3-4 years, the Ribba frame lost it's front glass and came with a styrene front instead. The weight changed and so did the overall appearance. Many craft artists like myself were left a little stumped as it was quite a big change. There are lots of threads across on many websites asking why Ikea did make this change this but there were never any answers. I was still buying the frames but found a glass manufacture that cut the specific glass to size. I was buying in pallets of 250+ sheets every few months and ended up becoming a supplier of glass to alot of crafters selling in lots of 5 upto 50 sheets. I didn't make vast sums but there was a nice little gap in the market as people were only offering styrene on the likes of ebay and not actual glass for these specific frames so I had no competion on ebay whatsoever. Then all of a sudden Ikea discontinued this line completely.

I ended up sourcing samples from a few framers around the UK that jumped onto the bandwagon about 3 years ago. I found a very good copy with glass included but the cost price was £8.00 a unit. It was in my opinion better than the Ikea moulding, but it didn't have a smooth finish like the original, it was more of a textured appearance. I have since seen an actual website using the name Ribba whom seem to offer an exact copy although I've never purchased a sample but have got in touch to ask a few questions. Their prices are closer to £6.00 per frame when buying in units of 10.

Many crafters jumped from Ikea Ribba frames to the Hobbycraft versions....have you looked at their website? These frames are ok but the don't have the same depth. I think it's approx 15mm between glass and backboard. I also had several frames arrive with scuffing to the outer frame. The material on the wood (which could be pvc) seemed to mark quite easily.

I think there is big demand for Ribba copies or anything that is deep boxed framed with a contemporary appearance especially in white.

[Gesso&Bole]

I have a customer that came to me about 18 months ago, asking if I could replicate the Ribba frame from Ikea that they were using. They were having problems getting hold of the stock they needed, and were concerned about a drop in quality.

There's no way I can make, never mind sell a frame for the £5 ish that they were paying. I also looked at the artwork they were putting in them, and suggested they were selling themselves short in terms of quality.

My suggestion came out over £20 for a marginally larger, and deeper frame (but the ideal size) with AR70 glass. This was met with a complete refusal from the customer, because they couldn't believe that a frame could be 'worth that much'.

I was determined that their artwork would look so much better in a decent frame, that I made them 3 frames to my specification free of charge on the basis that they took them to their upcoming exhibition, and priced them £25 more than their Ribba frame versions.

Needless to say those 3 sold first.

Since then, We have upgraded the framing specification twice, and each time they have increased their margin, and sold in better numbers. I now do £2000+ a month just with that customer.

[daveym]

I agree that paying more for a similar frame from a good frame supplier can generate a better mark up, but as you mention, this has worked for this customer when selling possibly at an exhibition/gallery as opposed to selling solely online. I don't think it's always as easy when selling solely online especially through a market place as many home crafters do. They also don't have the option of professional photos to convey the quality. Many f these sellers on the likes of ebay and etsy all work on very minimal mark ups due to the vast amount of competition. They rarely use such frames for only a print and instead use for 3d crafts such as scrabble tile designs or pictures with embellishments. One person selling a frame for £40 isn't going to achieve anywhere near the amount of sales as someone selling for half that price when it comes to such craft related items as I suppose these frames have become so mainstream that many customers know what they are willing to pay. But it still very much depends on what you are putting into frames. I do see some very good quality pebble art fetching upwards of £30 but not much more. Maybe frames of art works or prints from a specific artist with a following may well achieve far higher margins in lower end frames such as Ribba.

Some time back, the artist Banksy released a print and sculpture design of children playing on a swing ride in the West Bank and it was specifically sold in a white deep boxed Ribba frame. I don't know the reasoning behind why a Ribba frame was used. Maybe it was the most suitable for the depth of the sculpture, but I've seen this particular limited artwork sell for between £350 to £500 and more. I'm sure the artist being who he is could have quite easily used a framing company to make a far superior frame but of the same size and appearance, however instead chose to use the actual Ribba frame from ikea and it was advertised as this in the artwork's description. On that basis, i think it demonstrates that the brand or quality of a frame can sometimes be slightly irrelevant if what is actually inside is considered to be worth it.

[Not your average framer]

I'm guessing that Ikea were selling their Ribba range as a loss leader just to pull cusomers into their stores. As with all items sold as loss leaders, regardless who is selling them, they are never going to be great quality, but you can learn a bit from the fact that they are selling sizes which are likely to be popular with the customers. As far as I am aware Hobbycraft are operating to a different business model and there prices for most things are more expensive, so maybe there frames are a little better quality. It is interesting for me to know, if any of these IKEA frame sizes, have any helpful infomation to benefit me. As many will already be aware, I find it helpful to make small ready made frames, to use up my scraps and left overs. It is not greatly helpful to me, to be spending time handfinishing ready made frames. If I'm not careful, it's just money down the drain! However, when I have some small left over scraps of Oak moulding, there is no need to add any handfinishing to an Oak moulding, if it's just for a basic ready made frame.

The fortunate fact in such cases is that small Oak ready made frames will still sell for decent prices just because they are Oak frames and that's where the money is! Two, or three pounds for a small ready made frame, not making any worthwhile money for IKEA and it's certainly not going to make any money for any of us. If I'm using up scraps, which would otherwise end up in the dumpster, effectively my matterial cost are close to nothing. I don't always have a lot of small Oak moulding off cuts and sraps, so I am not producing more of these frames than I can sell, As a result their not any pressure to sell them to cheap. Small square ready made frames usualy are priced at £10 to £15 each and I make different types of these frames in relatively small quanities to cash into specific niche markets. Deep box frames and rustic style frames are always in demand providing that you don't make too many. Scarsity value keeps customers interested, if you are able to display to many, then customers are less interested and they don't buy them.

It is true that lower price do translate into more sales, buy more sales at less worthwhile prices just don't make any sense at all, so why bother? I can make more small frames out of my available scraps, that I could ever make out of making a smaller volume of larger frames. As it happens small square frames can work quite well for me!

[Gesso&Bole]

Hi Davey

I wasn't trying to suggest that all framing customers should be forced to have upmarket frames, just that some customers can be educated that a well executed frame can enhance the value and saleability of the artwork.

You are absolutely right that vast quantities of crafty type stuff is sold very cheaply on ebay and etsy etc. I don't have an issue with that, but it is not a market that I personally can, or want to compete in. I just don't want to do the volumes that I would need to do, to earn a living. That doesn't mean that I think people operating in that part of the market are wrong.

I think of the bespoke picture framer like me as in a similar market to an independent wine merchant. Like frames, millions and millions of people spend money on wine. But a very small percentage of those people regularly spend more than say £20 on a bottle. Mostly they buy wine in a supermarket or a pub/restaurant, and this must account for the vast majority of the volume sold. Bearing in mind that a restaurant bottle of wine at £20 would cost £5 or £6, most of the wine is manufactured to cater for this part of the market. There is, however, another much smaller but vociferous market supplied by independent wine merchants that caters for those that spend scores, or hundreds of pounds on a bottle of wine. I think the picture framing market is similar.

[Not your average framer]

Yes, I agree with Jeremy! Normally cheaper frames will mean a lot less potential from profit to whoever is producing these frames and there is little point in producing anything at almost nothing for your hourly labour rate. There's just no sense in doing so! It is also a reality that quite a bit of the time, which you need to speed runing a business, does not earn you any money. As a result, any time which you spend doing productive work, which will earn you money, also needs to pay for the time which you still need to spend doing unproductive things, which don't actually earn you any money at all. So what's the point in producing bits and pieces, together with some smaller ready made frames from my scraps and left overs? Well it only makes sense at all, if the hourly rate makes proper sense. As you can probably imagine, this is where doing this gets difficult and believe me not everything which you would like to do is necessarily going to make sense and be worth doing at all. I count my scraps and off cuts as alreadyy paid for in the wastage allowance of the bespoke orders which were originally produced as normal customer orders.

The off cuts and left overs wich are left overs don't owe me anything at all, but that does not means that I can always make any worthwhile money by producing anything from these left overs and scraps. I could produce lots of odds and ends from these scraps, but only very few specific items will sell at all and only so many will sell for a worthwhile price. So how do I determine what is a worthwhile price? Well, here is my critera!:

1. I don't want to spend money on materials. Materials which cost money are no good to me! Every penny spent on materials has to be paid for.

2. Only certain items are likely to have any reasonable chance of selling. So if it's not going to be reasonably popular, don't bother.

3. If you can't make such items in batches, it is unlikely that such items can be produced quickly enough to be worthwhile at all.

4. The materials may be counted as having cost me nothing, but I aim to make £1 per minute for my labour. It has to be this way, because I need to pay for my unproductive time which is necessary, just to keep the business running from day to day. If one of my small ready made frames takes me 10 minutes to produce, then I need to sell it for at least £10, to make any sense at all. It s just too easy to make things which don't make any money.

5. I must not produce too much of anything, so that I am not producing more that I can reasonable expect to sell in a reasonable time scale.

6. Displaying too many items in my shop window will reduce the visual impact and therefore the salability of each item in that window. There must be adequate space between each items to create visual impact.

7. Trying to sell what is available everywhere else is always going to be completely pointless. This is never going to be my market. End of story!

Everything which I try to sell, whether top end of the market, or ready made frames and other items, is always intended to be a niche market item. If it's not sufficiently special, why is anyone going to buy it? Even my cheap box will have nice items in it! Items which does sell in a reasonable amount of time, will initially become ready made items and then after some more time, they will become items in my bargain box, Dead stock has to go!

Small box frames and small rustic frames, usually sell quite well. I am based in a small rural town and I only certain ready made items will sell at all.

[daveym]

Do you have an online presence ie shop or online market place, as you mention being in a small town but with some presence online elsewhere then your open to more of the general public.

The best selling Ribba frame was 23x23cm with a depth of 25mm, so whilst small it wasn't the smallest of frames. Due to discontinuing the original line of frames, many crafters moved onto the Ikea 'Sannahed' frame which is 25xm x 25cm but far deeper. It was a newly released frame after Ribba. I believe the full depth frame is 5cm. I bought 5 samples last time I was in IKEA and have to say it is far better quality than the original Ribba but doesn't include glass. The cost is about £4.50. I certainly wouldnt go for any other deep frame after this if I only wanted white or black. The only time I would is if the size wasn't suitable or I wanted a shallower depth.

But as you say, deep box frames are very in demand so you're likely to do well with them and are probably perfect for what would otherwise be waste wood. The way I see it though is they seem to be in demand for repeat orders by photographers or crafters. I moved away from using some suppliers as either they just couldn't offer turnaround quick enough or couldn't compete on price. If you're only selling a few here and there just to use up waste then I'm sure you will do OK.

[Not your average framer]

Hi Davey,

23cm x 23cm is not really a worthwhile size for using up my left overs and scraps as this is not really a size which cannot normally be put to good use. 6 inches by 6 inches and sometimes 5 inches by 5 inches are much better for me, as such size moulding lengths are already sizes which I already regard as left overs and scraps only. Also if I am producing these frames as two smaller frames, instead of one larger frame, there is more profit in two smaller frames than in one larger frame. Added to that, I already make larger frames at a higher price, without needing to use up left overs and scraps, which I sell for a higher price and undercutting my higher priced frames makes no sense at all.

I've got a few lengths of older, but quite stylish factory finished mouldings, which I can easily convert to make deep box frames from and this is just an easy way to turn dead stock back into money. It's not a lot of effort to do it, but it's helping to clear some much needed space and make some useful money at the same time. I don't mind selling smaller frames a little bit cheaper, if I can sell them in matching pairs as at least when you sell two at the same time and the overall profit is not so bad. I am slowly winding down towards retirement some day, but I need to use up lots of stock first.