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Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Wed 12 Oct, 2022 5:01 pm
by Justintime
Any suggestions on how much we should be charging per window on a multi-window mount (27 in this case) using a CMC?

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 7:30 am
by GeoSpectrum
Charge for a normal mount of the overall size including one window then use a ‘per opening’ price x 26 added to the basic price. That way your costs and profit is taken care of with the basic price and the added value can be easily calculated and you have consistency.

An example might be:
Basic mount price: £15
Per opening cost £0.25
Overall cost £21.50

Just a suggestion.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 8:14 am
by Justintime
Thanks Alan.
On closer inspection of my framiac software after posting, I discovered that extra windows were being charged by time ie mins. I discussed it with a framer friend who suggested 50p-£1 extra per window.
Can anyone agree/disagree with this estimation?

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 9:04 am
by iorek
I don't ever really do multi window mounts, never get asked for them. But the idea of charging only £1 per extra window seems like madness.

Design Time + Fixing time + Actual costs = much more than £1.

The whole point of CMC is to be able to do these kind of jobs profitably. To recoup the cost when doing these things that a CMC is designed for means that you should be charging for profit.

For example

500x400 mountboard = £3.50
Undermount = £3.50
CMC cost = £20k to buy new, example 750 mounts per year = £26.67, Five years to recoup = £5.34 per mount cut cost.
Time to purchase, store, sort through, handle mountboard = (example £40p/hr, say 5 mins) = £3.34

Cost for 500x400 mount = £15.68

How much do we each charge for a single window 500x400?

Additional windows are a good way to boost profitability per job and should be charged appropriately considering the costs involved IMHO.

Back of fag packet calculations, I'm probably wrong but would love to hear others thoughts on this?

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 9:54 am
by Justintime
No problem with what you're saying. Are you up for doing a price check on it for me?
Bear in mind that the question came about when my software gave me £186 for the 27 window option below...

Mount size 800mmx850mm
Mountboard LJ 8627 (1400mic Con) book hinged to undermount of the same.
27 windows
Mount 27 Polaroids to undermount.

Also a price check for hedgehog/float mounting the 27 Polaroids onto LJ58627 (2400mic Con board)?

I'd really appreciate it, if anyone has the time.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 10:05 am
by Justintime
Apologies, just to clarify, the 50p-£1 is just a labour/time cost before the software adds on a profit margin to the total labour and material costs.
The 50p-£1 is for every additional window and does not include materials, overheads etc

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 10:39 am
by ChrisG
It depends whether the windows are all of the same size if so very easy to layout (on Gunnar anyway). If all different sizes takes a lot more time to set up and align.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 10:49 am
by Justintime
All the same...but yes, layout time too :Slap:

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 12:45 pm
by JFeig
A comment on the concept of a multi-opening mount is a "value added" product that is recognized in every industry. That is where the business makes a difference in what they offer vs just the "basic" product.

Look not very far and compare the cost of basic float glass vs "anti-reflective" or "UV filtering" glass. do you think that the glass companies use the same markup to sell to the framer or glass distributor who sells to us? I do not think so.

Take this lead by much larger companies that a mere picture framer, and use it to enhance your bottom line by adding a little profit for your creativeness expertise.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 12:59 pm
by Justintime
Thanks Jerome, I understand these concepts. I'm just asking for some price checks/comparisons, to give me a gauge of what others are charging.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 1:49 pm
by iorek
I don't have LJ loaded into my Estlite but here is what my customer would see for a conservation mount from Lion

800x850 single window and undermount - 87.30
800x850, 27 windows and undermount - 251.20

Difference - 163.90, that's only £6.07 per window I would exclaim, shocked at how good value it is.

Not a million miles away from where you are at present.

Customer doesn't know or care if it's cut by hand or computer - but we have to pay for that extra work either by time or investment in the machine.

Even at that price it would take 3,333 additional windows (or 666 per year over 5 years, roughly 2 per day) to pay for a CMC. Before running costs etc.

I don't know if that's helpful or not.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 2:15 pm
by Justintime
It's all helpful...I think!
Wow, £6 per extra window...oooookay.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 2:38 pm
by theframer
I would be £30.85+vat for single and £121.85+vat for the 27 windows (£3.50 per extra window)cut by hand or may even get a pal to cut it for me on his cmc for the same money.

Regards
Dave

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 2:43 pm
by JFeig
Justin, I would charge $4.00US per extra opening.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 3:14 pm
by iorek
FWIW - I don't think Estlite handles additional windows very easily. It charges additional windows based on 400x500 price, and then alters according to size. I don't particularly understand it - I just fudged the numbers until it made sense on a few tests and I've been too afraid to go back to it.

It takes me about the same amount of time and effort to do a small additional window as a large additional window. I feel it would be far easier to have an additional window fixed price (easier for customer to understand too, more transparent). Does anyone have a good reason why it shouldn't be like that? £10 per additional window, £20 per additional double mount window, £30 for a fancy decorative additional window??? Is this a discussion we should all be having?

At £40p/hr labour costs it would be £5 for 7.5 mins to cut an additional window, thinking manually. I think we're in the right ball park...

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2022 4:14 pm
by Justintime
It's been an interesting day, pricing-wise. It's good when a customer throws a spanner in the works and makes you do an annual check on the software. Luckily work is slow atm.
I've had a few chats off the forum as well today and now understand where the seemingly high prices are coming from.
Thanks Dave, Jerome and Iorek for your input.
Iorek, I think these discussions are happening between framers, just not on here so much.
Pricing transparency in framing is a difficult one as we manufacture from raw materials and there are a whole load of variables to each job that we have to navigate. Imo customers don't tend to choose a design based on price, they'd rather have a cheaper moulding than lose that double mount etc.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Fri 14 Oct, 2022 9:01 am
by Fruitini
Where did you position yourself on this one in the end Justin? Did you get the job?

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Fri 14 Oct, 2022 9:19 am
by StevenG
This is interesting - pricing multiple apertures is a grey area for us in some sense. Most of the stuff we do would only be a few so adding on a few £'s is fine and acceptable but if we had a 27 aperture job and asked £250 for the mount alone I reckon the person would just walk out the door. Don't get me wrong - I fully understand that we need to make a profit (and the more the better) but there has to be a point where we'll loose a sale. Most people are reasonable and understand the additional costs involved but there is a limit they're willing to go to. We use LifeSaver as our pricing software and it gives me a cost £131 for a 800x850 with 27 apertures. I'd happily accept that - take a sheet of mountboard for a fiver & spend (at the very most) an hour setting the layout. £100 per hour? - yes please. I don't think I'd find anyone to pay that though

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Fri 14 Oct, 2022 9:55 am
by Gesso&Bole
My thoughts on this.

If I have invested in a CMC then my hourly rate will take that investment (and running costs and depreciation) into account. On that basis I would charge based on how long it will actually take. 27 identical apertures on one mount will not take very long, but even then my timing estimate would always be a worst case scenario.

If I was working with a manual mountcutter, my hourly rate will be lower, but it will take longer. I would also have a risk element factored in just in case I F**&@ up on the last cut.

So, I would expect the CMC framer to produce the multi aperture mount cheaper - that in itself is a big commercial advantage.

Re: Pricing multi-window mounts on a CMC with software.

Posted: Fri 14 Oct, 2022 10:11 am
by Justintime
The majority of answers was that people tended to input 10 windows into the software and charge £2 per window for additional windows. Taking it from £180-£200 down to approx £140. There's some additional hinging time to add on to this. So I reckon it will be around £160 all in. It's a hypothetical, as the we looked at a few design options and the customer is now leaning towards floating them as they are Polaroids. So my next challenge is to price up hedgehog mounting 27 Polaroids! :lol: which basically means cutting 27 windows , fixing the fallouts to the back of the Polaroids and fixing back into the windows, which although labour intensive, will ensure that all are spaced and positioned "perfectly".