The Framers Forum

I bit the bullet and bought a Keencut Ultimat Futura UF120 recently, after using it for a bit I noticed that the scale on the squaring arm was out by 1mm at 60cm. I got in touch with them and after a bit of back and forth they said there was a problem with that batch of scales and sent me a new set of stickers. I replaced the scale on the squaring arm, and after a bit more use realised that the scale on the cutting bar was also out (should have realised this at the time I guess).

I didn't feel confident disassembling the arm, replacing the scale and reassembling, so after a lot more back and forth they agreed to just replace the unit and send me a new one.

I've just received it, checked the scale on the squaring arm and... it's out by 1mm.

My question is, am I being too fussy about this? It's not a huge amount, but it is annoying. These aren't cheap bits of kit and I feel like I should be able to expect it to be accurate.

Hi Zac

Not sure if I am misunderstanding the issue here, but the Futura has the facility to calibrate all of the various stops, so that it can be set up perfectly. I think you are saying that if you read off the measurement from the scale it is out by 1 mm. In which case, just calibrate the stop, and you will be good to go.

No, that's not what I mean, I mean that the scale is inaccurate. If I measure it against a class 1 tape measure, they differ by 1mm at 90cm.

Pics below of start and end

To state the obvious, have you double checked against a steel rule, just to be sure?
I wouldn't believe this if it hadn't happened to me on a brand new Fletcher panel cutter a few years ago...

I don't have a steel rule long enough, I've checked it against 2 different tape measures and the a 1200mm Keencut straight edge and it's off against all of them.

Like I said, my tape measure is rated class 1 so should be accurate. I guess it's possible that it's out... seems unlikely though.

Yup, time to get back in touch with Keencut?

Zac wrote: Wed 18 Oct, 2023 10:46 am My question is, am I being too fussy about this? It's not a huge amount, but it is annoying.

Your question hasn't been answered yet - I would say maybe you are. Cloth and plastic - especially sticky plastic - measuring tapes/scales are prone to error.

An allowance of +/- one millimetre in framing, generally, is acceptable if not standard; it's not engineering. The occasions where you need anal accuracy do exist but are rare, and knowing the foibles of your machinery makes that possible when needs be.

I had an excalibur and the glass wheel did not run along the same line as the blade, on the right hand stop it cut the glass fractionally larger than boards and vice versa on the left side. There was no fix bar a complete new rotating cutting head and I decided that was just too much a PITA - (although I did replace it before selling it). So, seeing as some people seem to think boards need more play in a frame than glass, I simply bought a second right hand stop and the left stop became almost redundant!

I was quite anal about things cutting SQUARE though, my ultimat gold squaring arm, wasn't perfectly, it seemed to wander, but once I had the excalibur that also became redundant! The margin guide and cutter bar were square and regularly checked - and the excalibur. The cutting stops on the futura can dial out any innacuracies regards over/undercuts so precision of scales there is even less important as long as it's not way out.

If the scale is out by 1mm over its length rather than always being 1mm out the adjustments on the keencut won't help. If you adjust the 1mm at 900mm so it's correct it will then be 1mm out at 40mm.
I'm not sure it matters for 1mm but as it's a really easy fix I would want it to be correct to start with.
If you don't trust the keencut scale you can buy decent metal ones online that will stick on. I've just replaced mine as there was a couple of holes in it.

Thanks all, especially @Justintime and @jkx for addressing my original question, and @pramsay13; do you have a link to the scale you've bought? I've done a lot of looking but it's hard find one that's metal, not cloth/plastic.

I guess I'll wait and see what Keencut say about it, although I expect they're fed up of hearing from me by now, but I do still think that for the best part of £2k it's not unreasonable to expect the scale to be accurate

Well I have just checked my Futura, and I agree, the squaring arm scale is out by approx 1mm over 900mm compared to a steel rule.

I am surprised at this discrepancy on an expensive and well-made tool.

But not concerned in the slightest, because I have not experienced any problems whatsoever related to measurements being out by fractions of a millimeter during normal framing operations. (My machine has been calibrated, and actually cuts accurately at 900mm, so therefore must be a fraction out at smaller sizes)

As John mentioned earlier in the thread, things can go horribly wrong if the mountcutter is out of square, but I won't be losing sleep over a part of a millimeter.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144045437295

Here's the one I bought. Just make sure it reads left to right.

We got our new Futura 1200 a few weeks ago.
Checked it today after seeing this post, and yes, we are also out by 1mm at the 900 mark.

As it happens I had a call today from Keencut on another unrelated matter so I mentioned this.
It is a known issue with recent printed scales.

They are addressing it and having replacement scales printed, which they will supply free of charge to anyone affected - they hope to have these available in the next few weeks.

I mentioned this forum post, so they may comment directly here. But if you have the issue, contact their support team.

Firstly, apologies to those you that have the inaccurate scales.
When we receive the scales in from the printer all the scales and stickers are printed on one sheet and we use a 600mm long digital caliper to measure any discrepancies, over that length we have a tolerance of + or - 0.5mm so we should be well within +/- 1mm over a metre. Unfortunately on the last print run the scale we measure as our check was accurate but the one for the squaring arm was outside our tolerance. The printer is checking to see how this has happened, hopefully we will learn more. But the assumption that on a reprint of the sticker set, where nothing has changed for a number of years, that if the longest scale is within tolerance that they all will be is not an unfair one.

We will of course replace the scales once we have had then reprinted. Zac & Roger we have you both down for one when they arrive (we will let you know when). Jim, if you need one please let us know your details on support@keencut.co.uk
To fit it is very easy, as I explained to Roger yesterday the scale replacement will not interfere with any of the settings of the machine and of course will not affect your warranty.
Make a pencil mark on the aluminium of the squaring arm adjacent to the 10cm mark. remove the scale, peel of the backing from the replacement scale and stick it down aligning to the 10cm mark (which will rub off). If any fine tweaks are needed the stop can be calibrated as in the manual.

I hope this explanation and replacement plan is OK with you Zac & Roger. Jim, let us know if you want one, thanks all.

Thanks for getting involved Roger, seems that it wasn't enough for it to just be me making a complaint about this.

2 months, 1 set of replacement scales and 1 replacement machine later and it looks like this will finally be resolved, fingers crossed.

Just a note to let you all know the printers are making a number of calibrated sample scales, we should receive them tomorrow Thursday and once we have checked them we will ship out replacements to those that have requested them. Thanks for your patience

Thanks for your time on the phone earlier Zac.

I have a slightly different problem with mine, the long scale is perfect but the top scale with finger is in the wrong position, there isn't enough adjustment before the spring is coil bound to make it right, so if you are cutting a 50mm mount you have to do 50 50 52. I also have a Ultimat Gold with Futura bar upgrade and that is correct and you can see the scale is stuck down in a different place. As mentioned disappointing considering the price

I've just received the replacement ruler sticker and I'm sorry to say @KeencutTechSupport that it's still out.

I tested it against my steel tape measure (which I've double checked to be accurate) and at 900mm on mine theirs reads 898mm. I tried getting Keencut support on chat but had to leave a message, but I wanted to warn anyone else who's down to receive one to check theirs before replacing.

NTG999 wrote: Fri 27 Oct, 2023 2:47 pm I have a slightly different problem with mine, the long scale is perfect but the top scale with finger is in the wrong position, there isn't enough adjustment before the spring is coil bound to make it right, so if you are cutting a 50mm mount you have to do 50 50 52. I also have a Ultimat Gold with Futura bar upgrade and that is correct and you can see the scale is stuck down in a different place. As mentioned disappointing considering the price

Hi, this is a different problem and in all probability just a setting issue, can you send a copy of your post together with photos of both stops and one of the blade set in the blade holder ready to cut to support@keencut.co.uk . Also what thickness and type of board are you cutting and with what type of blade. Thanks

Zac, we are looking into it and will reply soon.