Newbie questions

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F91W
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Newbie questions

Post by F91W »

Hi good people of the FF,

I have just completed a weeks training and purchased some second-hand equipment from the forum and I'm in my first week of framing.

I have hundreds of questions, every 5 minutes - but here are some of the more pertinent ones;

Glass So I can see that framing suppliers will supply 2mm float glass in sheets or cut-to-size.
My question is, is the 2mm float glass from a framing supplier any different to the glazer round the corner who can cut 2mm float glass in minutes?

Shipping framed artwork A few of the orders I have planned need to be posted in the UK, how do you guys navigate packaging and distribution? How do we feel about shipping glass? Are any mainstream delivery companies leading in shipping framed work?

Storage How do people store mount board / glass / other sheets in their workshops? I'm struggling to find suitable storage.

Thanks for any tips.
I may add to this thread as more questions pop in, rather than filling the entire board with my never-ending queries.

Thanks again!
Michael
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by pramsay13 »

2mm float glass is 2mm float glass. Just check prices and delivery, prices, lead time etc. Your framing wholesaler will also offer different types of glass such as anti-reflective that your local glazier probably won't offer so keep that in mind.

I don't send frames any more as when I did around half of them were broken in transit.
There aren't many couriers insure for glass so you could do it and use plastic glass.
There are quite a few other posts about packaging and shipping frames so have a read through them.


My glass sits against the wall behind the left arm of my morso, and my mountboard behind the right arm, moulding goes on racks above them so a fair amount of storage without using much extra space. Again a few posts about storage in workshops including handy photos or diagrams so have a read through.
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by JFeig »

Michael, IMHO a single week is not enough training for a business owner. Have you operated a business before? Do you have a written business plan as to the type of picture framer you want to be (clients base, area of concentration, budgets, etc).

Starting off as an "internet retailer" has its own set of problems(communication with the customer to satisfy their needs, developing a pricing strategy, a hefty marketing budget(cost of acquisition) and shipping) before you have mastered the basics of a making a profit as a frame shop.
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by Justintime »

Hi Michael,
Glass - the main difference will by that from a framing supplier you will be buying sheets of glass at wholesale prices and cut to size at wholesale minus the cutting time that you would normally be charging. A glazier will sell it to you at retail. If making a living is important to your endeavour I would suggest buying wholesale.
Shipping - is difficult as most couriers will not insure a package if it contains glass. That's not to say that you can't ship it, just that you as the sender won't be covered for a breakage including the damage it may do to the artwork. Acrylic is a better glazing when shipping. There are techniques to suspend the framed work within a package to minimize shock (a whole different thread).
Storage - there are various options. Lions sell storage carts on wheels which I never liked much. There are also work tables with mountboard storage slots built in underneath. I had a carpenter make me up a storage box with six large dividers, made from 18mm and 9mm ply.
Lions used to sell a glass storage unit, but I can find no sign of an image online anymore. My carpenter made me a very similar version.
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by NTG999 »

When I checked with my local glass merchants they were not competitive on price for 2mm, not even close. I put that down to framing wholesalers buying massively in bulk, after all nearly all 2mm is used for framing.
I wouldn't entertain posting finished framing jobs
F91W
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by F91W »

JFeig wrote: Tue 29 Oct, 2024 12:50 pm Michael, IMHO a single week is not enough training for a business owner. Have you operated a business before? Do you have a written business plan as to the type of picture framer you want to be (clients base, area of concentration, budgets, etc).

Starting off as an "internet retailer" has its own set of problems(communication with the customer to satisfy their needs, developing a pricing strategy, a hefty marketing budget(cost of acquisition) and shipping) before you have mastered the basics of a making a profit as a frame shop.
Hi, I can see my message may have been misleading. This is my first week framing, practicing on the tools, putting the hours in. Only when I'm comfortable will I be taking customer work. Maybe 4-6 weeks from now. First, practice, make mistakes, learn!
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by F91W »

Justintime wrote: Tue 29 Oct, 2024 12:55 pm Hi Michael,
Glass - the main difference will by that from a framing supplier you will be buying sheets of glass at wholesale prices and cut to size at wholesale minus the cutting time that you would normally be charging. A glazier will sell it to you at retail. If making a living is important to your endeavour I would suggest buying wholesale.
Shipping - is difficult as most couriers will not insure a package if it contains glass. That's not to say that you can't ship it, just that you as the sender won't be covered for a breakage including the damage it may do to the artwork. Acrylic is a better glazing when shipping. There are techniques to suspend the framed work within a package to minimize shock (a whole different thread).
Storage - there are various options. Lions sell storage carts on wheels which I never liked much. There are also work tables with mountboard storage slots built in underneath. I had a carpenter make me up a storage box with six large dividers, made from 18mm and 9mm ply.
Lions used to sell a glass storage unit, but I can find no sign of an image online anymore. My carpenter made me a very similar version.
Helpful as ever. Thanks!

I see, I wasn't factoring in trade vs retail costs. Makes sense now.
I'll have a look into shipping as I do know this is something I need to do in a couple of months time. Maybe acrylic is the solution.

Thanks again.
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by Justintime »

F91W wrote: Wed 30 Oct, 2024 11:20 am Hi, I can see my message may have been misleading. This is my first week framing, practicing on the tools, putting the hours in. Only when I'm comfortable will I be taking customer work. Maybe 4-6 weeks from now. First, practice, make mistakes, learn!
My advice is take in whatever work is offered to you, giving yourself a realistic stress free deadline of say 4-6 weeks. Get your socials and Google listing setup and "live" and document your journey as a framer, and spread the word far and wide. Buy the recommended books and learn learn learn, practice improve, but keep taking work in. If something is too difficult or out of your comfort zone then ask for help. There's no shame in turning a job down or changing your mind later. You have to get the plates in the air and then keep them spinning. Pricing is important and there are people who can help you with that as and when. Joining the FATG will open up a huge world of information and support when you're ready. Access to experts in the field through the Helpline is priceless imo. You probably won't make a profit for a few years and you will do things now that you will cringe about in the future, but the sooner you start the sooner you'll be good at it! As JFeig said, a business plan is essential for thinking through your place in the market, your aims and identifying your Unique Selling Point. If you're going to make it, you need a USP.
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F91W
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by F91W »

Really helpful responses, thanks guys.

I am in the process of making up some tray frames with a canvas depth of 40mm

I can see canvas offsets are the component for attaching the canvas but as far as I can see they come with a depth of max 18mm

What could I use for 40mm depth?

Thanks!!
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by Justintime »

I'm not sure that canvas offsets are what you need for a tray frame. How deep is your tray frame?
Usually the canvas sits in the tray frame below the top of the frame and is fixed with screws through the bottom of the frame.
Can you post an image of the moulding profile just to clarify?
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F91W
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by F91W »

Thanks for the response.

Not sure how to post an image but it's this one https://www.lionpic.co.uk/p/43625/12mm- ... e-Moulding
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by Gesso&Bole »

That looks the perfect tray frame for a 40mm canvas.

1) check the canvas is square
2) make the frame so the aperture is 10mm bigger than the canvas
3) put the canvas into the frame and using off cuts of foam core or mountboard (cut into small squares) pack out the gap (should be 5mm all round, but canvas may not be square) with a couple of spacers each side.
4) when you are happy that the canvas is in the correct position, pull the frame towards you on the bench so you can access the underneath. Then drill a small pilot hole through the back of the frame, and screw from the back of the frame into the back of the canvas stretcher. I usually put 4 screws through like this from the back, and then check everything is in the right position before turning the whole frame over and inserting enough screws to hold it secure.
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F91W
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by F91W »

Awesome, really appreciate the advice. Such a helpful bunch.

I'm just doing a test chevron on the L shaped moulding and I have a nice clean mitre so happy with that.

When underpinning on Casesse CS88 is it possible to fire a wedge into the tallest part of the L? At the outer corner?

On my test piece the mitre is clean but there is a small gap at the join with a couple of wedges in there.

I used a wood PVA but don't have a clamp so maybe that is why?

Do you guys glue and clamp? What is the process for ensuring no separation once pinned?

Thanks y'all!
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by NTG999 »

PXL_20241107_131107771.jpg
This is an L shape moulding, I glued and underpinned 3x 7mm wedges then on the outer edge 1x 15mm, you can double stack the 7mm wedges but I think there is less chance of the wedge wandering off if it is single. I didn't clamp
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by Justintime »

I clamp around 90% of my frames. With a yellow stanley band clamp, a tenner on Amazon.
Under enough pressure a good quality PVA glue is much stronger than a few wedges, so the clamp will ensure a good bond. On a float frame when underpinning, I'd clamp the top of the moulding as this is the face that you see, the wedges will hold the base together while it cures. As said, stacking wedges can be a precarious job, as they can often just fly out the side or just go in next to the first one. I'd never attempt to stack more than two.
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by F91W »

Amazing - the clamping really helped. Thank you, thank you.

I have another project with a few keeping-me-up-at-night thoughts...

The artwork is 700x500 and the request is for edge-to-edge, similar to this reference Image

The moulding is Image

If the artwork is 700x500, what size should I mitre the moulding to?

What can I use to avoid the artwork touching the glass for this moulding shape?

Also, would this be T-hinged to the undermount?

Any tips on this project would be really appreciated.

Thank you!! Again! Thank youuuu!!
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by pramsay13 »

I normally make the frame 2mm larger than I need to allow for expansion. This applies if I am using mountboard or not.
There are a few options for spacers to lift the glass off the print such as econospace plastic spacers, thin strips of mountboard, or wood.
If the print is the full size I wouldn't hinge to the undermount, the only time I would do that if the print is 'floating' and there is space around it.
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by prospero »

If you frame a piece of paper like that it is likely to go wavy even if you do allow an expansion gap. The edges will be 'crimped'. On way is to add a 'slip' which will effectively widen the rebate and run a strip of linen tape along the back edge of the slip to raise it slightly. This will also space the glass away from the paper. It creates a small gap so the slip does not restrict the edges of the paper. I do this with large posters when drymounting is not desirable.

If that is confusing, here is a diagram....
slipdemo001.jpg
Another way is to widen the actual rebate on the moulding but this is not alway feasible depending on the size/shape of the moulding and whether you have a router table. It's a bit of a faff. :roll:
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F91W
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by F91W »

Hey people,

I've been loving my first few months framing. Learning so much and a healthy dose of errors in the process, ultimately getting the results in the end.

I've had some real helpful comments in this thread and have been thinking on a few more queries.

I have a request for an A0 print to be framed, customer has suggested a mount not sure I can cut a window that size on my Keencut 48"? I think I could possibly dissuade that request if a mount window isn't doable.

Maybe I could hinge to a jumbo board over the top and T on the back? And then for glazing would I need 3mm glass? Also I see a lot of comments about a subframe but not sure I fully understand how it is structured in the context of picture framing. Can anyone share images or their process for subframes?

Any other thoughts I need to factor in for this A0? Is there a certain size of moulding that would be seen as minimum size?

Another sideways thought, what is the consensus around when the contents of the frame, mounts/spacers/glass is deeper than the rebate for the frame, is there a smart way to seal and finish the back of a frame if the contents are deeper?

Oh one more thing, I have a 800x600 canvas around 20mm depth - customer would like some frame stacking - so basically a choice of two mouldings together and without glass to show the details in the piece. So I have framed canvas but only in tray frames, never with regular moulding. Is it as simple as just joining the moulding and sitting the canvas within the rebate of the inner frame? This seems a bit off to me!?
If that is workable how does the frame look from the back?
Also what else do I need to factor in for stacked frames? For a first-timer?

I often have many more questions buzzing in my head so there may be more to follow!

Thanks again guys,
Michael
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Re: Newbie questions

Post by Justintime »

A quick Google search brings up this download from Wessex pictures, re subframes...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... PEwwCBnnmH
Wessex also have a Fine Art department, who can cut and supply mounts and undermounts in any size including jumbo mounts.
I suggest you have a look at their website and familiarise yourself with all of the board sizes and types that are available.
There are many many educational resources available to the new Framer. Wessex and Lion's website are a good place to dig into. Larson Juhl also have learning resources including practical videos.
Many of your questions will have undoubtedly been answered on this forum in the past 20 or so years and if you haven't already I can highly recommend making use of the search box above.
There was a discussion on the very topic of fitting a package into a frame with insufficient depth only last week (or the week before).
Before and during my first six months or so of framing, I set myself a goal to read the entire forum beginning to end, front to back. I can say that it was a long and occasionally arduous task, but the benefits of listening in to thousands of framing related posts were unimaginable. I am still waiting for my medal.
I can also recommend visiting some museums and renowned galleries where you can absorb some of the history of our craft, and see some of the practices and techniques used, both traditional and contemporary. Having an appreciation for framing and design styles is an important part of the journey.
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