John is correct when he says that we have to charge a fair price for the job - business is business - I am not on some moral crusade to create better framing and will always find a way to work within my customers budget. The fact that i can be fairly persuasive - especially when someone has put many hours into creating the piece they want framing, makes framing textiles one of my more lucrative activities. Its can be just one of those occasions when you can underestimate how long it can take - on the majority i probably slightly overestimate - it generaly averages out.
Not sure where the fundementalist rhetoric came in - Steven has always been very straight in his opinion that you work to the highest standards possible, the debate was about how badly some framers work can be - the danger being clearly defined that the customers brief can often be forgotten when you open another framers work. I often get work in from customers who do a lot of textiles - firmly glued to a board. I have one customer who is 101 years old - i dont charge her to stretch the work and i doubt that i am letting down my fellow framers in doing so.
Gallery of Rogues
-
SquareFrames
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Mon 23 Feb, 2004 9:37 am
- Location: Dromore, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
- Organisation: Dromore Picture Framing / Down School of
- Interests: Reading, relaxing, and funnily enough, its hard to stop thinking of framing
- Location: Dromore, Northern Ireland
- Contact:
Blunders
Hi,
I always call it as I see it, No fundamentalist rhetoric.....I have set my framing standards and will stick to them. I call it straight down the line, there is no sense white washing over a subject or topic, but what i do is either agree or disagree, maybe even say....'Ahhhh thats a better way' and mention who I agree or disagree with. Picture framing is not black and white, we all have our own ways of doing a job, and we all have our own ways of pricing and discounting a job, but what clients expect in this day and age, is top quality work for the prices we charge. As long as the end product turns out exactly as we told the clients it would, there is no problem. Problems will arise in the future with bad framing methods and jobs that have been done 15-20 years ago when the techniques and materials were not available that are availbe today.
I frame and also teach to Fine Art Tade Guild standards, thats why my courses have been accreddited by the Guild. My view is that the standards have been painstakingly researched and set out, of cousre they are 'work in progress' as materials and techniques, improve in the future, so why not set your stall out and frame to a standard, it kind of makes good sense. NOW this is not a topic on the Guild, its a topic on bad framing, and in my opinion setting high standards to aspire to, means you cannot go wrong.
Having said all that, if I or my wife wants to give an old age pensioner a little more discount, simply because of her circumstances, we will do, but not on the methods. This does not in no way show dis-service to the industry, its personal, the old lady in question wont go to the other framers and boast of her discount, the transaction is personal between her and us. But what does a dis-service is what we started talking about....bad framing methods, and in my opinion gthe use of glues and adhesive tapes on fabrics. But like I said before, framing is not black and white, we all use differing methods, I choose not to use glue, tapes, etc. But to see a clients face when her object is taken apart and the glues and tapes have all but ruined her hard work.........well........al I can say is....that's the dis-service (in my opinion)
Steven
I always call it as I see it, No fundamentalist rhetoric.....I have set my framing standards and will stick to them. I call it straight down the line, there is no sense white washing over a subject or topic, but what i do is either agree or disagree, maybe even say....'Ahhhh thats a better way' and mention who I agree or disagree with. Picture framing is not black and white, we all have our own ways of doing a job, and we all have our own ways of pricing and discounting a job, but what clients expect in this day and age, is top quality work for the prices we charge. As long as the end product turns out exactly as we told the clients it would, there is no problem. Problems will arise in the future with bad framing methods and jobs that have been done 15-20 years ago when the techniques and materials were not available that are availbe today.
I frame and also teach to Fine Art Tade Guild standards, thats why my courses have been accreddited by the Guild. My view is that the standards have been painstakingly researched and set out, of cousre they are 'work in progress' as materials and techniques, improve in the future, so why not set your stall out and frame to a standard, it kind of makes good sense. NOW this is not a topic on the Guild, its a topic on bad framing, and in my opinion setting high standards to aspire to, means you cannot go wrong.
Having said all that, if I or my wife wants to give an old age pensioner a little more discount, simply because of her circumstances, we will do, but not on the methods. This does not in no way show dis-service to the industry, its personal, the old lady in question wont go to the other framers and boast of her discount, the transaction is personal between her and us. But what does a dis-service is what we started talking about....bad framing methods, and in my opinion gthe use of glues and adhesive tapes on fabrics. But like I said before, framing is not black and white, we all use differing methods, I choose not to use glue, tapes, etc. But to see a clients face when her object is taken apart and the glues and tapes have all but ruined her hard work.........well........al I can say is....that's the dis-service (in my opinion)
Steven
Someone Once Said 'Knowledge Is Power'
Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
GCF Examination Centre
Accredited Valiani Demonstration / Training Centre
Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
GCF Examination Centre
Accredited Valiani Demonstration / Training Centre
-
Manor Fine Arts
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Tue 07 Dec, 2004 7:46 pm
- Location: Banbridge Northern Ireland
- Contact:
shoddy work
Hi John
I have no problems repairing other picture Framers Blunders, Shoddy work, etc, its the customer who has the final say when they ignore their old framer and bring all their new framing work to me.
Blunders + Crap + Shoddy work = no work
Paul
I have no problems repairing other picture Framers Blunders, Shoddy work, etc, its the customer who has the final say when they ignore their old framer and bring all their new framing work to me.
Blunders + Crap + Shoddy work = no work
Paul
-
Framing Norah
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Fri 18 Feb, 2005 4:03 pm
Re: shoddy work
Manor Fine Arts wrote: I have no problems repairing other picture Framers Blunders, Shoddy work, etc, its the customer who has the final say when they ignore their old framer and bring all their new framing work to me.
We have no problem here putting right someone elses mistakes and are quite happy to take on new customers as a result.
However, I don't think that the customer needs to be told how bad the job was done first time round. Not only is it unprofessional to belittle a fellow tradesman it also belittles the customers initial choice, making them feel foolish surely isn't a good move.
-
Manor Fine Arts
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Tue 07 Dec, 2004 7:46 pm
- Location: Banbridge Northern Ireland
- Contact:
Hi Sarah
I completly agree not to degrade an other framers work by pointing this out the mistakes, Let them degrade them selves
Paul
Paul
-
Merlin
- Posts: 1538
- Joined: Thu 05 Jun, 2003 5:50 pm
- Location: Cornwall
- Organisation: Merlin Mounts
- Interests: Aviation
There is another side to this discussion. Surely it is also our job to educate the general public.
The majority do not even know this forum exists, so cannot see the damage that has been done to the work.
When a rework comes into the shop, I always take it apart in front of the customer and explain what, in my opinion has gone wrong, and what needs to be done to correct the problem. Having said that, I never ask who did the original work. That would be unfair.
This can be done quite easily without making the customer feel foolish for their choice of original framer.
That customer will then go and look at their other frames/pictures and I do know that in discussion with their friends will pass on that little bit of knowledge that they gained from me. Hence more work.
The majority do not even know this forum exists, so cannot see the damage that has been done to the work.
When a rework comes into the shop, I always take it apart in front of the customer and explain what, in my opinion has gone wrong, and what needs to be done to correct the problem. Having said that, I never ask who did the original work. That would be unfair.
This can be done quite easily without making the customer feel foolish for their choice of original framer.
That customer will then go and look at their other frames/pictures and I do know that in discussion with their friends will pass on that little bit of knowledge that they gained from me. Hence more work.
John GCF
-
kev@frames
- Posts: 1951
- Joined: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 12:06 am
- Location: Penzance Cornwall UK
- Organisation: Moonshine Framing Penzance
- Interests: 4 or 5 ...
- Location: West Cornwall, UK
- Contact:
Im with you on that one John-John wrote:....... The plain fact is, lacing is tedious and time consuming, and anyone who is not charging a realistic price for this is doing the trade a dis-service in the same way as the cowboys who knock out cheap frames and generally set a low price-point for framing in the minds of the public.
When discussing lacing with my customers, I always suggest that they might like to save a bit of money by doing it themselves. And many of them do just that. The rest can make the further choice between the carpet tape or lacing. Most go for the tape. It's their choice and an informed judgement based on a hefty price difference.
I believe that I serve my customers well.
We are the same. I'd estimate 50% tape, 20% lacing, and about 30% take them home and bring them back laced.
And I make no bones about tape. we even give them a printed A4 page explaining lacing and why they should conserve the items, and let them make an informed decision what they want us to do with it.
On a personal note- i hate doing all fabrics. I hate taping because it is (imho) a bodge. I hate lacing because... .. well I just do. If they paid me £100 an hour to do lacing, I'd still try and palm it off on someone else.
And yes, it *is* part of the job, but so is putting bleach in the toilet, so is doing the books, and so is emtying the cullet bin- and I dont enjoy that either.
On the other hand I do appreciate the time and effort a lot of people put into fabric art of all sorts, and I often have to pause, count to ten, and remember this and put it into perspective when the tape/cotton comes out.
If i do lace something, i do it the best I can, full stop.
If I tape something, I tape it the best I can, and try my best to do the minimum harm, full stop.
At the end of the day, once you've informed them truthfully (educated?) and they still want it taped, then tape I'd tape with a clear concience, however soul destroying it is.
The danger is ending up with a taped (bodged) job ending up on another framers counter with the customer to embarassed to admit that they asked you to bodge it.
Thats why I have been reluctant to submit pics of the bodges we see on a daily basis to the forum. There but for the grace of god and all that....
-
Roboframer
I get more than my fair share of needlework to frame because we sell it - loads of it. We give incentives to return it nowhere but here for framing, such as free lacing on complete kits over a certain price - membership of our needlework club means ANY needlework bought here gets laced for free.
We lace everything that is lace-able, would never put any form of adhesive near any form of needlework - don't care if it came free with a magazine. We'd rather customers didn't lace it themselves, I've had them in laced across a cornflake box front with fishing line. They are always crooked - (the needlework, not the customers)
I don't want someone asking 'where did you get THAT framed' whilst thinking 'So's I can avoid them, they can't get stuff in the frame straight!'
I'm spoilt for choice for needles and thread, 'cause we sell them too.
I don't give customers choices regarding methods. I have my way of doing things, if the cost is too high they can compromise in other ways, narrower mount, spacer instead, lower quality moulding - go somewhere else.
We lace everything that is lace-able, would never put any form of adhesive near any form of needlework - don't care if it came free with a magazine. We'd rather customers didn't lace it themselves, I've had them in laced across a cornflake box front with fishing line. They are always crooked - (the needlework, not the customers)
I don't want someone asking 'where did you get THAT framed' whilst thinking 'So's I can avoid them, they can't get stuff in the frame straight!'
I'm spoilt for choice for needles and thread, 'cause we sell them too.
I don't give customers choices regarding methods. I have my way of doing things, if the cost is too high they can compromise in other ways, narrower mount, spacer instead, lower quality moulding - go somewhere else.
-
Merlin
- Posts: 1538
- Joined: Thu 05 Jun, 2003 5:50 pm
- Location: Cornwall
- Organisation: Merlin Mounts
- Interests: Aviation
I have to say that I am with Roboframer on this one.
We too sell 'Needleart' and lots of it. We also use the 'incentives' he mentioned - well apart from needlework club.
We too sell 'Needleart' and lots of it. We also use the 'incentives' he mentioned - well apart from needlework club.
So true, one bad voice/report/comment can lose you many customers, whereas a good recommend can gain you custumoers.don't want someone asking 'where did you get THAT framed' whilst thinking 'So's I can avoid them, they can't get stuff in the frame straight!'
Likewise, every piece of NeedleArt is laced. Who knows, even that little piece done by 'junior' could one day become a family heirloom. We have set our standards and we are reaping the rewards. Two customers this week who have travelled over 50 miles to have their X stitch framed ready to enter the National W.I. Needleart competition. Complete with our 'sticker' on the back. Good P.R.I don't give customers choices regarding methods. I have my way of doing things, if the cost is too high they can compromise in other ways, narrower mount, spacer instead, lower quality moulding - go somewhere else.
John GCF
-
osgood
Lacing
Its encouraging to see that so many framers here lace needlework. Despite some opinions that it is "tedious and time consuming", I find that it is not really time consuming. If it prepared with extra fabric sewn on all four sides so that the lacing isn't miles long, it is quite quick and easy to get the lines of stitching straight.
There is one other method that is acceptable and easy to do on smaller pieces. Fold the needlework around the edge of Artcare foamboard and put pins into the edge of the foamboard. Nickel plated brass pins seem to be excellent for this. Stainless steel is also acceptable, but the quality of the stainless can't always be guaranteed.
Getting customers to do their own lacing is fraught with problems. They never come in straight and square or in the centre of the backing and they almost always need doing all over again. If they are put into the frame as they are, guess who gets the blame for the poor workmanship.
Besides that, can you imagine your surgeon getting you to administer your own anaesthetic or your mechanic getting you to grind your own valves to save yourself a few bucks? You wouldn't dream of it! Getting people to do part of a framers work can only devalue the industry in the minds of those customers and their friends.
We need to educate people to understand that this industry is important and requires a huge amount of knowledge and skill. Your customer needs to know that you have that knowledge and skill and they should not try to do your job for you. If you let them do part of your job, you are saying to them that anyone can do this work and that will trivialise the industry as a whole. Our customers need to have the "I wouldn't dream of doing any part of the framers job", mindset. We can help to develop that mindset in our customers, by being knowledgeable and skillful and above all, professional.
I'm afraid I shuddered once again when I read "here is the package from glass to MDF" as if MDF is thought to be the standard material used for backing. I don't understand why anyone would want to include and then seal in such a huge quantity of acid into a framing package and think it's OK.
There is one other method that is acceptable and easy to do on smaller pieces. Fold the needlework around the edge of Artcare foamboard and put pins into the edge of the foamboard. Nickel plated brass pins seem to be excellent for this. Stainless steel is also acceptable, but the quality of the stainless can't always be guaranteed.
Getting customers to do their own lacing is fraught with problems. They never come in straight and square or in the centre of the backing and they almost always need doing all over again. If they are put into the frame as they are, guess who gets the blame for the poor workmanship.
Besides that, can you imagine your surgeon getting you to administer your own anaesthetic or your mechanic getting you to grind your own valves to save yourself a few bucks? You wouldn't dream of it! Getting people to do part of a framers work can only devalue the industry in the minds of those customers and their friends.
We need to educate people to understand that this industry is important and requires a huge amount of knowledge and skill. Your customer needs to know that you have that knowledge and skill and they should not try to do your job for you. If you let them do part of your job, you are saying to them that anyone can do this work and that will trivialise the industry as a whole. Our customers need to have the "I wouldn't dream of doing any part of the framers job", mindset. We can help to develop that mindset in our customers, by being knowledgeable and skillful and above all, professional.
I'm afraid I shuddered once again when I read "here is the package from glass to MDF" as if MDF is thought to be the standard material used for backing. I don't understand why anyone would want to include and then seal in such a huge quantity of acid into a framing package and think it's OK.
-
Roboframer
I don't like pinning - but use it if nothing else suits - not often.
The best pins are 'T'pins but they are plated and have one cut end, which can rust.
There are plenty of other methods too such as support sewing, another one that I like is the 'tight fit' method - good for some flimsy fabrics.
Cut an aperture (bigger than the mount aperture) in 5mm foam board, cut it at ninety degrees, not bevelled - don't worry about overcuts.
Fit the fallout back in with the fabric, tease into place, put a few stitches in at the back if you wish to tidy things up.
The best pins are 'T'pins but they are plated and have one cut end, which can rust.
There are plenty of other methods too such as support sewing, another one that I like is the 'tight fit' method - good for some flimsy fabrics.
Cut an aperture (bigger than the mount aperture) in 5mm foam board, cut it at ninety degrees, not bevelled - don't worry about overcuts.
Fit the fallout back in with the fabric, tease into place, put a few stitches in at the back if you wish to tidy things up.
-
Not your average framer
- Posts: 11004
- Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
- Location: Devon, U.K.
- Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
- Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
- Location: Glorious Devon
Kev,kev@frames wrote: On a personal note- i hate doing all fabrics. I hate taping because it is (imho) a bodge. I hate lacing because... .. well I just do. If they paid me £100 an hour to do lacing, I'd still try and palm it off on someone else.
And yes, it *is* part of the job, but so is putting bleach in the toilet, so is doing the books, and so is emtying the cullet bin- and I dont enjoy that either.
I noted that you are in Cornwall, so this may be of interest to you. Whilst I don't mind do the lacing myself, I've been looking for ways to become more efficient with my use of time and get things done much faster. Well, while discussing something else with them I discovered that the Art Centre (previously Western Art Frames) in Kelly Bray, Callington, Cornwall offer a lacing service. Daren, the boss tells me that he has a lady on his staff who has years of experience and does a first class job. They can collect and deliver via the Venton delivery van, their prices seem o.k., so next needlework job I get will be done my them and I'll add my bit on top. Maybe this is music to your ears - was so to mine!
Cheers,
Mark
-
osgood
Pinning/lacing
In other words 'T' pins are not the best!Roboframer wrote: The best pins are 'T'pins but they are plated and have one cut end, which can rust.
Pins used for this method need to be completely corrosion free! Nickel plated brass pins do not corrode.
The tight fit method is good, but on some occassions it is possible that it does not remain 'tight'. It is probably not a good method for other than smallish pieces as is pinning, in my opinion.
I have laced almost every piece of needlework I have done in the twenty years I have been in this game and find it very easy. For those who have difficulty with lacing, you are welcome to check out the way I do them at:
http://www.ormondsframing.com/Lacing/lacing.html
Many other framers around the world have found these instructions helpful.
-
Roboframer
Sorry Ormond - should have added 'so I do not use them'
They are the best shape, pity you cannot get them made from stainless steel.
I Like your lacing instructions, we only sew on an extension if the stitcher has not left a very generous margin, then we always sew an extension of the same fabric, but we sell it.
I do like the idea of making the fabric come closer together at the back too, but the time saved in lacing may be used in sewing those extensions on?
There isn't much that cannot be prepared for framing with a needle and thread.
Anyone near here want to sub their lacing out to me?
They are the best shape, pity you cannot get them made from stainless steel.
I Like your lacing instructions, we only sew on an extension if the stitcher has not left a very generous margin, then we always sew an extension of the same fabric, but we sell it.
I do like the idea of making the fabric come closer together at the back too, but the time saved in lacing may be used in sewing those extensions on?
There isn't much that cannot be prepared for framing with a needle and thread.
Anyone near here want to sub their lacing out to me?
-
osgood
Lacing
John,
I sew extra on all pieces that are further apart than one inch...well my wife does, because I can't drive a sewing machine. She does them in batches and it doesn't take her long.
One of the benefits of extra material is that you don't have to pull so much thread through.
I have found that there is another immense benefit of sewing on the extra fabric.
Because of the tension applied with lacing, there is always a deflection of the lines of the fabric, so that instead of those lines being straight, they have a wavy shape. The waves are worst where the lacing thread passes through and is least, the further away from where the lacing thread passes through and closer to the edge of the piece.
The extra fabric moves the tension points even further away from the edge of the piece and so it is much easier to get the lines of the fabric straight on the front. My opinion is that the extra time it takes to sew extra on is far outweighed by the above two benefits and that's why I do it that way.
I sew extra on all pieces that are further apart than one inch...well my wife does, because I can't drive a sewing machine. She does them in batches and it doesn't take her long.
One of the benefits of extra material is that you don't have to pull so much thread through.
I have found that there is another immense benefit of sewing on the extra fabric.
Because of the tension applied with lacing, there is always a deflection of the lines of the fabric, so that instead of those lines being straight, they have a wavy shape. The waves are worst where the lacing thread passes through and is least, the further away from where the lacing thread passes through and closer to the edge of the piece.
The extra fabric moves the tension points even further away from the edge of the piece and so it is much easier to get the lines of the fabric straight on the front. My opinion is that the extra time it takes to sew extra on is far outweighed by the above two benefits and that's why I do it that way.
-
Roboframer
Ormond,
More I hear, more I like - we sell all sorts of fabrics - mostly for needlework - aida, linen etc. But we have two weights of calico, cotton drill, curtain lining etc too.
Not spoilt for choice but neither can I work a sewing machine, my wife can but I don't think she would like to be doing this regularly. When we DO get extensions sewn on we sub it out to a dressmaker/friend.
I'll give her a wad next time I see her, see how I get on with them.
More I hear, more I like - we sell all sorts of fabrics - mostly for needlework - aida, linen etc. But we have two weights of calico, cotton drill, curtain lining etc too.
Not spoilt for choice but neither can I work a sewing machine, my wife can but I don't think she would like to be doing this regularly. When we DO get extensions sewn on we sub it out to a dressmaker/friend.
I'll give her a wad next time I see her, see how I get on with them.
lacing
Hi all,
very useful discussion here for a relative beginner like me! Especial thanks to Ormond for those lacing instructions, they are going to make life a lot simpler for me in future, and give me more confidence when taking in X stitch.
Les Sutherland
very useful discussion here for a relative beginner like me! Especial thanks to Ormond for those lacing instructions, they are going to make life a lot simpler for me in future, and give me more confidence when taking in X stitch.
Les Sutherland
Framing quality
Hi again,
just like to say that I am seeing a lot of bad framing coming into my shop, some is artwork for sale framed elsewhere, some very badly finished. Is it possible to get masking banned period? Probably not as most framing suppliers to make a merit of selling it!
I try very hard to maintain the standards set by the guild and to educate my customers, especially the artists, about framing standards. I especially try to explain why I frame to the standards that I do, i.e. protection of the customers work, and practically all of my customers accept the advise and information I give them. The guild's leaflet on framing standards is very useful to have on the counter and I do try to include it with completed orders.
As to photographing bad work, this is something else that I have started doing recently, any previously framed work is photographed all the way through the opening of the frame, just because some of it is so bad. I can understand work that was done twenty years ago (except the masking tape!) but not more recent framing. I currently have seven frames from one artist alone to redo as they are all so badly framed, i.e. standard mountboard, mdf backing, overcuts, flexible points, masking tape, open corners etc. etc......
I am a bit of a perfectionist but I am also charging people for what I do. I expect to get what I pay for, I don't see why my own customers can't expect the same.
Les Sutherland
just like to say that I am seeing a lot of bad framing coming into my shop, some is artwork for sale framed elsewhere, some very badly finished. Is it possible to get masking banned period? Probably not as most framing suppliers to make a merit of selling it!
I try very hard to maintain the standards set by the guild and to educate my customers, especially the artists, about framing standards. I especially try to explain why I frame to the standards that I do, i.e. protection of the customers work, and practically all of my customers accept the advise and information I give them. The guild's leaflet on framing standards is very useful to have on the counter and I do try to include it with completed orders.
As to photographing bad work, this is something else that I have started doing recently, any previously framed work is photographed all the way through the opening of the frame, just because some of it is so bad. I can understand work that was done twenty years ago (except the masking tape!) but not more recent framing. I currently have seven frames from one artist alone to redo as they are all so badly framed, i.e. standard mountboard, mdf backing, overcuts, flexible points, masking tape, open corners etc. etc......
I am a bit of a perfectionist but I am also charging people for what I do. I expect to get what I pay for, I don't see why my own customers can't expect the same.
Les Sutherland