Gallery of Rogues

[Merlin]

How many times have you been asked to have a look at a problem on a picture framed by another framer.
On opening the back you have asked the question “How on earth have they got away with this”, yet from the front everything appears fine.
During the past seven years in this business, this has happened quite a lot to us. These ‘reworks’ are not confined to our local competitors either as quite a few are from ‘up country’ and it is quite disheartening to see the way originals / limited editions and those prized cross stitches are and have been treated by people who advertise themselves as professional framers.

There are many excellent publications available on the high street and with the advent of the world wide web numerous sites giving superb advice on how to handle and treat the artwork. Also guidelines on how to mount and frame.

Most of the framing sites have their ‘newbies’ asking for help and advice and they are pointed in the right direction.

Yet how many of these publications / sites actually show examples of what NOT to do. A few, but not many.

To that end, I have started taking photographs of ‘reworks’ and will post two initially, just to gauge the reaction and hope that more members do the same.

As framers, we are also here to educate the general public. So let us educate and have a “Gallery of Rogues”. As long as no names are mentioned we should not get into any sort of litigation situation.

Of course this also has to be approved by the forum Moderator and I am not even sure what forum index to put this under. If it is wrong then I am sure John will move it to the relevant section for me.

[Merlin]

A regular customer brought this one in saying it is not square in the frame can I fix it please. His wife had got it as Christmas present for him and it cost “a few hundreds of pounds”. It could not be taken back as the framing business had closed and the owner moved.
This other framer had a retail small picture gallery and two large workshops. He also ran picture framing courses that were not cheap.

The art is a Lt Ed from a well known artist and the print run is 300. Notice that the art has been hot pressed onto smooth board.

A double mount has been used with the second mount showing 20mm. This has been cut separately from the top mount and is not square, so the mount sides do not run parallel with each other. The bottom mount is fixed to the top mount by tape down the left and right hand sides only. Plus it is a good deal smaller than the top mount.

The dry mounted art is fixed only by the tape across the top and actually feels quite heavy, so no wonder that the art itself dropped. This also is a good deal smaller than the top mount.

Both mounts are standard board, with overcuts approaching 9mm on the downward stroke of all four (eight really) corners. Very unsightly.

With two mounts plus the dry press smooth board, this makes the item bigger than the frame rebate. Unfortunately the backing board was pressed into the rebate and pinned making it very convex in the centre.

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

At last, someone else with the same problem as I have, and is willing to mention it on here, re-doing someone elses shoddy work.

I am sick, sore and tired explaining to clients, other framers and listening to myself and most of all on here. I totally agree with you that images should be published in books, videos, newspapers, anywhere in fact, of the type of unholy errors and downright shameful methods used by unscrupulous framers.

That's all it is, unscrupulous framers being allowed to get away with it, people out to make a 'quick buck' and to hell with the consequences, because by the time the fault ever arises, 99 times out of a 100, the person involved will either have ceased trading (if you can call it trading), moved 'garage or shed' or with any luck, 'died'

Like you I have started to take images of the work we have to reframe, re-mount, etc. but for my next client's eyes, maybe I too should start posting them, or better still make a website dedicated to this and call it www.framingdisasters.com.....haha, and where I disagree with you slightly is: start naming and shaming, that's how angry I feel about it. Like I have always said, i dont mind taking the money for the re-gframing, etc. but I should not have to, it should never come to that, but I wont do it for nothing. If I make a cock-up or something slips out of place, etc, after I have made it, I change it myself..FOC. HEY!, it has happened from time to time, a mount bevel browns when it shouldnt have, a piece of archival tape breaks, and the image slips, a bit of lacing breaks, at least I know that the tapes and the lacing has done its job and broke before damaging the artwork. Not all the materials we use are gaurnateed perfect, but at least the methods have worked and done what they are supposed to.

The bit that gets me is: For those of that are in the UK and Eire, and to a certain extent all over the world, there are standards that have set by Fine Art Trade Guild. Fair enough you may not want to have anything to do with the Guild, thats up to you, but surely to goodness there must be an ounce of decency in the back reaches of the brain to know either: how to turn a job out correctly, how to finish a job correctly, and know that you have taken some pride in doing what do. Am I being to naive?

John, have a look at the posting 'Here We Go Again' I made just after the New Year, see what I had to contend with, and remember the 13 or 14 tapestries I had in towards the end of last year. The posting is there somewhere.

I am going to name drop here, sorry in advance if it upsets anyone, but, the likes of yourself, MarkW, Jerome (Jerry), John and myself, and a few other 'VERY Regular Contributors' (I am also sorry if I left anyones name out here) are the only ones complaining of this type of work, are the others (the quiet ones) the guilty parties? Goodness, I hope no one conected with this forum would stoop so low as top turn out work like those explained.

Like you, I dont mind pointing the 'newbies' in the right direction, after all we all have had to start somewhere, we wernt all born expert framers, (were we?)

I propose that we all put our disaster images into 'The Distaster' folder that John will set up, wont you John? Stop taking photos of your snappin box! and you corned beef sarnies!!!!! I know John would not allow the naming and shaming of those irresponsible framers, at least not on here, but at least we will know who they are,a dn we have all the fun of correcting their cock-ups and making a few extra puinds in the long run. My view: a bad way to have to make a few quid!

Steven

PS
Here's my wee FREE tip and piece of ADVICE for the day..........................

'The Tip' Read The Fine Art Trade Guild standards, read the standrads set by mountboard manufacturers, read the standards on printers, and prints, etc. Even if you dont or never join the Guild, their advice on the standards is freely available on the website.........

'The Advice' If you are going to do a job, DO IT RIGHT, do not tar all framers with your brush.

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

Found the posting on the 12-13 tapestries I had in last year for reframing.....look under 'Its a Shame & Disgrace'

Steven

[Merlin]

This cross stitch is some 15 years old and has a lot of sentimental value. Customer came in with the piece asking why the mount core had gone yellow. With the customer present and with her permission, I dismantled it.
I was not that surprised at the find, but her face was a picture (sorry about the pun)




Looks like the Aida material was fixed with a rubbery contact type of adhesive to the back of the mount. Then there was a 25mm wide double sided tape – like carpet tape – placed on top of the material and a piece of mountboard placed on top, then the backing board.

Not sure that the Phots show it, but there is a wide acid mark all round the material where the top mount was fixed to it.

Needless to say, the material has now been laced to solid core board and a new mount fitted.

Too late really as the damage has been done. Although as the piece is 15 year old, there is some excuse. Knowledge !!!!! or lack of, even then.

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

Excellent photos. What I find hard to believe is that framers today (never mind 15 years ago) still use carpet tape and carpet glue to square and stick down the fabric art.

Steven

[sarah]

Hey there gents.

I am assuming that the best way to stretch a tapestry/X-stitch is to lace it. Surely this is a lot of work, how do you price for this? In addition how do you get round a peice that just doesn't have enough material to 'grab'?

Prehaps I am being a little niave here but there has to be room for common sense, and a little business sense too. If a wee old lady comes into a workshop wants her X stitch framed at a budget how do you justify the lacing, etc. I can understand the conservation thing for something of great value or even a national heirloom (eg, a tapestry by queen anne) but for granny's sampler- why?

[markw]

Sarah makes a good point - many customers - especialy with textiles cant afford the level of framing neccesary - as framers i suppose we have a choice - discount the framing - or do it to the standard that the customer wishes to pay for. I will try and strike an intelligent balance and will discount on the strectching if the customer chooses a suitable moulding. If you do enough textiles you should be able to lace a small textile reasonably quickly.

As for pictures of naff framing - you can take these things out of context if your not carefull - be happy that your own standards are high - push the FATG to educate the public.
personally i sometimes enjoy taking other framers work apart - i have one to do tomorrow of a prominent prize winning local framer - i hope to be impressed. I remounted some turn of the century prints today - they were beautifully mounted - but the materials used were of the standard for that time and were well on their way to disintegration.

[ImagesLen]

I like the idea of this thread as a newbie to the framing arena this could be a great source of education. By showing what has been done incorrectly and then explaining the way it should be done can only be extremely useful.
Thanks to all

[SquareFrames]

Hi Sarah,

Like Markw, I will compromise with the client if they simply cannot afford the level of framing required, but only on the frame, not the method. Personally what I wont do, and I have said this before on here is: Staple, Glue, Stick Down, use carpet tape, or any other kind of tape / adhesive, I will always lace the fabric.

For goodness sake, we know the costs of a piece of foam board, a small piece of wadding and or conservation board, its not that much, and if the fabric is not that large, use a bit, there is always scrap bits knocking about somewhere. How long would it take to lace an old ladie's cross-stitch? You could do it while having your morning coffee, and the kudos of having used the correct method, well, it could pay dividends, after all, she most likely has lots of old lady friends all wanting framing!!! Its like helping an old lady across the road, you'll get your rewards (not in heaven this time) but in increased business.

Its been that long since I used glue or staples near a piece of fabric art, I'd probably have forgotten how.

I also agree with Markw about pushing the FATG to educate the public on the standards, as you well know I am trying 'from within', but in the meantime I have a much better idea of pushing the standards while the wheels are in motion....why dont we all personally educate the public on the standards........whats a few words or sentences on the appropriate standard any job should be done, make a up a handout for your clients, make a poster for your wall, let them read it, it all helps! Its all part of education and educating your clients.

Steven

[Merlin]

Hi Sarah
Your assumptions are correct. The best way to stretch a tapestry/ x stitch is to lace it.. Some would even say it is the only way.

If the material is not wide enough, then you sew extension pieces onto it and then use that 'extra piece' as the lacing point.

Common sense should dictate that somebody who has taken a lot of care and possibly quite a few hours stitching this 'granny's sampler' has the right to have that work treated with a lot of care as well.

As the framer it is beholden on you to treat any work correctly, not damage the work and advise accordingly. That could save you litigation further down the road.

With practice it actually does not take much longer to lace than it does to use other methods.

I have had many a looooooooooooong discussions with the local W.I. 'stitcher guild' about the costs involved and the procedures used. That is why these posted images come in so handy. After showing them what damage is being done to their 'granny samplers' and even their own national competition pieces by tapes and glues, they now understand why that extra charge is incured.

But hey, yes business sense is used, but only in the discount of the moulding used. It is paying dividends, our workload has increased and all by word of mouth. Educate them and they will return.

[Merlin]

Yet another way which we have seen used in the USA - Is to stretch the fabric over 3mm foamboard and using a Tag gun (attach eze type) tag every 1/2 inch. This is so quick and easy, but you must go through to top fabric and the foam AND the fold on the back for it to be effective. For belt and braces you can zig zag lacing across the T's in the tags to further tighten it..

This is conservation practice as well... As it is fully reversible with no damage to the artwork in any way..

As ALL xstitch should be mounted, the mount hides the tags as well.

However, one big problem for us over here is that the rebate depth is nearly always not deep enough for glass/xstitch/foamboard/fabric and backingboard.

I bet this technique will bring forth a few comments !!!!

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

Only two comments:

This tag gun, I have seen it, but not used it, but have it on very good authority, its not bad. On the finer fabrics it would though damage the fibres, as the tag is larger than the warp and weft.

Second: NOT all X stitches or other fabrics need or have to be to be mounted, infact I have close framed many X stiches, using 2 frames, an inner slip frame, an outer frame and the glass sandwiched in between, or one frame and spacers.

When doing the GCF Advanced Textile examination, one of the 3 pre framed pieces for inspection, is a tapestry that is close framed to Conservation standrads, NO MOUNTS.

Steven

Steven

[Merlin]

Hi Steven
Yes my error. I did mean to put 'mounted or spacers used' well spotted..
We have two tag guns. A standard pricing label type of gun and one which has a very very fine needle. The tags are really no thicker than a standard sewing needle used to lace.

We use this mainly for the sports shirts. I did say we have seen this procedure used. We do not use it ourselves. Good standard lacing is for us. However it is another technique, which really must not be ignored.

I keep looking at the Advanced exam, maybe will get some info on it from the team at the NEC

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

Like I said, I only had it on good authority, personally I dont use them, nor have I even see one, I prefer the good old fashioned lacing, always have, always will. Like most framers (I am sure) we have a range of needles for differing fabrics, noting as bad as trying to put a huge needle into a delicate piece of artwork, although I have seen it done, never mind the huge needle, the thickness of some of the thread being used sometimes beggars belief.

Talk to Louise at the Guild stand, (I think she will be there on the Sunday / Monday, but dont quote me on that) She is the GCF programme manager, she will have all the details and Study guides will be available, etc. If by some chance Louise is not there, Lucy and Bhavesh will be on hand.

If you want any info on the exam and its format, contact me, I will keep you right on the books required for reading, etc.

Steven

[markw]

tag guns
Brilliant for some work - very disapointing on others. I cant see how it would replace lacing - the tag itself cant apply any tension to the work so it doesnt keep the work taught - lacing the t bar ends of tags would seem to double the amount of effort needed. the tag gun can be used to square up some pieces on the board - and hold them in place whilst you lace. On sports shirts the tags are brilliant on the old cotton shirts - but the needle can damage the newer nylon type materials used on much of the current shirts - have to say that this material can also be damaged by thinner needles. - the old chestnut rebate debth doesnt go away does it? Many of the new mouldings coming on to the market have very shallow rebates. who exactly are these mouldings designed for? might it be that most mouldings are purchased not by bespoke framers but industrial scale framers who dont do complicated mounts - textiles. I am sure there will be a lot of new mouldings presented over the next couple of weeks - maybe we should score them - good new topic for this section?

[John]

Sounds like a real missed business opportunity here.

Someone who finds lacing to be simple and quick could set up a lacing service for the rest of us who find it to be tedious and and time consuming(and charge acordingly).

I would be happy to send them all my lacing business, after all, how much could it cost?

What a win-win business that would be. They would be happy- as they would never be out of work. And I would be happy because I would get my lacing done for much less than it would cost me to do.

Seriously.
The plain fact is, lacing is tedious and time consuming, and anyone who is not charging a realistic price for this is doing the trade a dis-service in the same way as the cowboys who knock out cheap frames and generally set a low price-point for framing in the minds of the public.

When discussing lacing with my customers, I always suggest that they might like to save a bit of money by doing it themselves. And many of them do just that. The rest can make the further choice between the carpet tape or lacing. Most go for the tape. It's their choice and an informed judgement based on a hefty price difference.

I believe that I serve my customers well.

[markw]

lacing will incurr my customers a cost of between £10 - 25 pounds- above the framing costs. I have two price structures - one for easy work - the other for lozenge shaped - back strewn with excess thread - etc. Like John I will instruct customers on how to lace - give them a piece of board and they can do it themselves - few do. i dont use carpet tape and never will - cant see how you can expect the work to stay taught. I have tried every method i can find to speed up the process - the only thing that makes it faster is practice.

Back to the original subject - poor framing - i have just had a classic "why have they done it like that" . Job in for reglazing - nice limited edition print in a very complicated washlline mount - with coloured bevels on two mount layers + outer board washed over the complete back ground - very well wash lined with good use of colours. The work is mounted on a back board ---t hinged with masking tape - all tape used is cheap masking tape - why go to so much trouble and then use cheap tape - DOH! - done by a local gallery/ framer - they arent FATG members.

[SquareFrames]

Hi All,

I have a charge of £25 per hour for lacing on top of the framing costs. I would love to charge a whole lot more, but I am in a small market town with an aging population. To put it simply, there are some basic rules of lacing to follow: and the main rule is No Tape and No glue

1. Choose the substrate that the object is to be laced around, either Conservation Foam Core Board, either 5mm or 10mm, with or without polyester wadding / padding. 99% or fabrics can be laced around this, others need just a little more firmer substrate, so I would use 2 sheets of solid core board, drymounted together, with wadding for extra protection.

2. Choose a coloured mount (if not using wadding) that matches the colour of the fabric canvas and place it behind the artwork

3. Lace in parallel lines across the back and tie off, do the same in the opposite direction. Lacing in parallel lines puts less strain on the fabric's warp and weft, thus causing as little damage as possible. Before tying off pull the lacing through, tightening the lacing, but never too tight, fabric can be damaged at this point

4. Once lacing is complete at the rear, manipulate the fabric to ensure that the stitches are again, parallel with the edges and square to the bevel of the mount (if one is used). (Sending the customer away to so this, most times does not work) Unsightly rows of uneven stitches do not make a good impression, nor do they make a good job.

5. Most important rule of all, ensure that when framing, the object is not touching the glass. Use spacers, foam core board, etc. to ensure the correct spacing is achieved. I also use foam core to make a wall come cage type surround around the laced fabric, this ensures that it does not move on the back of the mount. Then place an undermount at the back of the fabric., the the MDF or whatever backing you use.

To give you an example: whern i do a X Sticth with a double mount, here is the package from glass to MDF

1. Glass
2. Double mount (inner mout chosen to contrast the artwork's colours, the outer mount, Champagne or Ivory, or whatever light pastel colour the client has chosen)
3. Strips of 5mm foam core, reversed bevelled and hidden form view behind the double mount
4. Single Champagne or Ivory mount (See point 2)
5. The artwork, surrounded by 5mm 10mm foam core (depending on the artwork's depth)
6. Undermount (Conservation or Museum grade board)
7. MDF

OK, the described method was condensed and this is my chosen method, some will no doubt say they do it differently and say 'where's the tape and glue?' (there is none) but this method has worked for me over many years, and I will continue to use it and also teach it to my students for some time to come. A lot of work goes into the final object, but in no way is it boring or tedious, I enjoy doing fabrics, that's why I did the GCF Advanced Textiles, and decided on offering courses, etc.

I disagree and actually take exception with the comment that by doing any particular job cheaper I am doing the industry a dis-service, this is not right, the same could be said that by using tapes, glues or staples, or using such adhesives, rendering the job irriversible is a dis-service to the client's work. If I choose to do the random, little old lady a favour out of the goodness of my own heart, that is my problem, not the industry's. Like most, if not all of us we have scraps lying around, I use them up, and 15-20 minutes to lace a small X stitch does not waste a whole day, and at least you have made one old lady a happy person, nay! two happy people, the client and yourself!

Steven

[John]

Framers who charge less than a fair price for their services do the rest of us no favours. That is all I'm saying Steven. If that is what you are "taking exception" to then I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give offence.

I would like to ask all here to show a bit of tolerance and allow for other views. Lets avoid the use of rhetoric and try not to be too harsh on other framers who may not come up to our standards.

And please try not to take offence where only lively debate is intended.

John