time and price advice please

[rachel welford]

Hi there,
I'm new to framing and would appreciate a bit of advice on how long things take and therefore price please.
I think I'm slow at the moment as I'm new. Could anyone tell me how long you think the following frame should take please and advise on price:

Picture size 625mm x 625mm
15x25 black smooth Lion 'Mono' L3658 moulding, ayous, £1.72/m,
float glass,
13mm spacer Wessex A154, £1.56/m
no mount
VW1002 undermount £3.60/sheet
Corricor Mark 1 backing £4.65/sheet

I get materials to be £41.36 including VAT, before wastage allowance.

What would people charge for the finished frame please (not VAT registered)?

I'm intending to use i-framer pricing software but haven't got to grips with it yet.

Thank you so much!

[Justintime]

Hi Rachel, persevere with the software. In the end it will make your life so much easier and more profitable. It does take some time and effort to get right.
I can help with a price check on Monday
Justin

[rachel welford]

Thanks Justin, yes, will focus on learning the software. In the meantime I've been pricing jobs individually with a spreadsheet, which also takes a while! Look forward to your thoughts on pricing, thank you for taking the time

[Fruitini]

Hi and welcome!

Time taken will soon come down as you gain more experience and confidence and better working patterns and processes. Start to finish it would take me about 30-40mins I’d think including packaging,admin etc. Agree on persisting with software. Find one that works for you, there is plenty of choice. One that keeps good records of previous orders will prove invaluable in the longterm. We’d be £135.50 for this incl.VAT. Bear in mind that everyone’s situation is different. Hourly rates, rent, rates, overheads, material costs (supplier discounts) location, profit expectation etc. Build good relationships with a couple of suppliers and your direct costs will come down.

[rachel welford]

Hello and thank you! My pricing came out at £114.97 which isn't so far off. I estimated 1 hour, but it took me 2hr 45! Including packing, but no admin. Oh dear! But I did have quite a bit of faffing on to get the spacers right, which I haven't done so much of yet. Great food for thought. Thank you for taking the time to reply! Rachel

[Fruitini]

You’re welcome! Dont forget I’ve added VAT to my price so we are very similar. I’d make my own spacers using scraps on the CMC so wouldn’t buy length. Yes you’ll definitely get quicker the more you do! Good luck

[pramsay13]

I normally make frames in batches of 3 or 4 at a time, but it maybe takes around 1/2 to 1 hour for a frame that size.
I would be around £90 for something this size.
Is your material cost correct? I use a cheaper backing but with everything else the same I'm around £27 for materials.
You probably need to work at getting frames made quicker without compromising quality.
Might be worth asking a separate question about spacers if that's causing you problems.

[Justintime]

Hi Rachel,
For the price check, my software is giving £155 no vat.
Materials at £41 incl wastage.
Labour 55 mins.
Plus markup.
Spacers are a pretty essential skill imo. There are a number of ways to do them, some quicker than others.
Assuming you have a morso and a foot operated underpinner, my favourite way is to cut the spacers 1mm less than the frame dimensions and glue and join them on the underpinner using 3mm or 5mm wedges, depending on the depth of the spacer. On a smallish frame the joined spacer will sit in the frame without any additional fixings. If the frame is of a size that the spacers will require fixing into place, I cut a reverse bevel n the spacer and fit one at a time, usually using alternate dabs of atg tape and pva/eva glue. On a very large frame with barewood spacers I have used a headless pinner to fix them into place. You can also eva some 3mm foamboard to a piece of mountboard and when dry, cut spacers out of it, known as mountboard spacers. These are great for perfectly colour matching the spacers to the mountboard, when you want to space the mounted piece of work off the glass. I know JKX hates this look, but in the right situation I think it is a great design choice.

[JKX]

The right situation for me would be unlikely to be something unfunctional. I don’t dislike the look of something set back but you can get frames that do that with deep rebate lips whilst also keeping glazing against the mount, preventing it from bowing - a problem highlighted here not long ago.

Some I did earlier that were functional.

[Justintime]

20231201_175249.jpg

Here's an example of my work fwiw. The extra depth was requested by the customer, in fact she was one of those rare customers who knew exactly what she wanted, design-wise. Hopefully any future bowing issue has been mitigated by glueing the mount to the undermount using EVA, at a safe distance from the artwork obviously.

[JKX]

I had many customers who knew exactly what they wanted until they met me!

Ooh no. you don’t wanna do that, no, this is what you wanna do. (Harry Enfield)

I’d suggest a spacer to match the frame but outside of the glass. No? Ok same but I’ll paint the spacer to match the mount or whatever. No? Ok, it needs to be set back from the glass? Yes? Totally fine, nooooo problem. I’d use a platform mount - undermount bonded right up to the aperture with starch paste.

The shadows put me off - if they’re unavoidable fair enough but if they’re not, I’d avoid them!

[rachel welford]

Thank you Justin, JKX, Pete and Fruitini,

Justin, so will your price of £155 have markup added to it or is that included? Reassuring that my materials and time estimate came out the same as yours.
I tried to underpin the spacers but the Vnail came out of one side, but I'll persevere with experimenting with that. Thanks for all the other spacer explanations, really useful! Is the headless pinner a tool or do you tap the pins in?
When making spacers out of foamboard and mountboard, What do you cut them with please? On the mount-cutter?
I actually really like the look of spacers, and they're really common in the big art galleries for contemporary works on paper. I leave plenty of border so that the shadows don't interfere. Thanks for your pictures and the tip about glueing the mount to undermount to avoid bowing. Nice triple mount! And spacers.

JKX your functional spacers look great, and very technical! Thank you! Interesting about putting the frame-matched spacer outside the glass. Will mock a couple up to check that out!

Fruitini, I don't have any machines beyond morso, underpinner, board-cutter and mount-cutter, so I'm not producing scraps I could use for spacers. On the list for the future though...

Pete, interesting that yours came out cheaper, thanks you!

I definitely need to speed up, but that's just practice I suppose. But if I'm to make any profit I need to speed up soon!
Thanks for all the replies, this was my first post, I'm glad I wrote it!

[Justintime]

Hi Rachel,
materials + labour + markup = £155
Re underpinning spacers, with a foot operated underpinner you can guage the amount of foot pressure/force you apply. It really doesn't require much, as you've found and using small enough wedges and ensuring the wedge goes into the middle will help.
The headless pinner is an air tool I bought from Axminster tools with a set of various sized pins. I tried an electric one first but it wasn't up to the accuracy I needed, left marks and rarely drove the pin all the way in.
Mountboard spacers, yes cut with the straight cutting blade on the mount cutter. When you cut down a mountboard on your board cutter/ mount cutter ready to cut your window, those are the scraps/offcuts we are talking about.

[rachel welford]

Thanks Justin, that's perfect! Really helpful!
Rachel