I had an email from the MD of The Fine Art Trade Guild yesterday - they are providing the secreteriat for EMMA - the european moulding manufacturers association. Whilst its not entirely clear what this means for members of FATG the advantages are set out as a finaciial contribution to cost and the opportunity for the FATG to get into Europe. The information being pretty scant, my view would be that the staff at FATG are going to be doing two jobs - with the MD becoming the Secretary General of EMMA ( i suspect the financial position will be favaourable for those who gain a significant post).
Having been a long term critic of FATG involvment and coverage of the industry in the UK i fail to see how this amalgamation can benefit the fine art trade. With less than 30% of framers and a percentage of artists so low that i cant calculate it, the FATG needs to looking hard at just how succesfull it is at promoting itself in the UK before hopping across the channel. With such a poor involvment by framers in the FATG i suspect the attitude will be one of indifference. I have never tried a poll - lets have a go to see how many forum members are FATG members.
Europe - here we come
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SquareFrames
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Mon 23 Feb, 2004 9:37 am
- Location: Dromore, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
- Organisation: Dromore Picture Framing / Down School of
- Interests: Reading, relaxing, and funnily enough, its hard to stop thinking of framing
- Location: Dromore, Northern Ireland
- Contact:
Europe Here We Come
Hi,
Like Markw, and all Guild members, I got my email yesterday as well, and what a coup for the Guild, it will make the Guild stronger in Europe with the manufacturers and give the organisation more credibility and more clout. It will also make the GCF Scheme much stronger throughout Europe. I myself will learn more next week while in London, but I believe this is an exciting time for the Guild and its partners, so lets sit back and watch the Guild get stronger, without slating its endeavours without knowing what the impact of this really is.
BUT, it saddens me, but I feel with Markw's posting and his poll, the 'Here We Go Again' snipers are about to raise their heads above the parapet and once again, slag off, slate, berate, demean, call it what you like, the Fine Art Trade Guild. Slagging the Guild off without know the implications of this, doesnt do anyone any favours.
The level of uninformed rubbish about to be spoken about the guild, will make me sad. If the only questions people would ask themselves, is "what is the guild going to do for me?" and 'What am I going to do for the Guild' we would be far better off.
Whilst a member of this forum, I have listened and watched very carfully over the past year at the postings re the Guild, and it looks like the forum members want a strong trade representation, then join the guild and change it from the inside if you feel it's no good. No good shouting and whinging from the outside, do something about it.
I participate on the Guild's Framers Committee 'Voluntarily' not because I think the Fine Art Trade Guild, is the dogs gonads, but because I am passionate about the industry I work in, and passionate about the standards the Guild have set. I want to help influence this industry so therefore I participate.
One of the main items I am most passionate about is standards, not only the Guild's standards, but also the standrads we set ourselves, that why I organise courses for GCF's, GCF Seminars and the like, you'd think that someone who went to all the bother of studying, taking and passing the GCF exam would fell the same? (being far too naive here for my own good) Again this is all done on a voluntary basis, Why? Because I want to help make this industry better! My wife is also the loal Branch Master for Northern Ireland, again all done voluntarily, Why? because she, like me is passionate about the industry, and wanst to help influence the changes required to make this organsation better, not just for her business, but for all.
We work from the inside, do all our shouting, negotiating, bartering (call it what you will) around a table during committee meetings, we listen to all the complaints during Branch meetings and via telephone, and we report back to the Guild office and get complaints sorted and rectified, we also pass on ideas, suggestions to the office that believe it or not, do all get disscussed at meetings in London, some are put into practice, some are not, thats what an organisation does, its democratic and continually works for the good of the industry.
For those who are not prepared to fork out £175 (£3 a week) to be a part of the trade association and participate, then before you start whinging, you've no right to critisize those who are at least trying to in good faith.
And lastly, for those who are not members, ex-members, just thinking of becomming a member, just remember two little snippets, if your business is framing to the highest standards possible, (as it should be) who was it helped and negotiated the standard of materials such as mountboards, prints, inks, etc. that the manufacturers now all produce?, And who is it that will continue to negotiate with other manufacturers, for instance, glass, backing boards, tapes, etc. to make your materials perform to the highest possible standrads .....Yes, you got it, the Fine Art Trade Guild. So even if your not a member, in some small way, you got to at least thankful for that!
Steven
Like Markw, and all Guild members, I got my email yesterday as well, and what a coup for the Guild, it will make the Guild stronger in Europe with the manufacturers and give the organisation more credibility and more clout. It will also make the GCF Scheme much stronger throughout Europe. I myself will learn more next week while in London, but I believe this is an exciting time for the Guild and its partners, so lets sit back and watch the Guild get stronger, without slating its endeavours without knowing what the impact of this really is.
BUT, it saddens me, but I feel with Markw's posting and his poll, the 'Here We Go Again' snipers are about to raise their heads above the parapet and once again, slag off, slate, berate, demean, call it what you like, the Fine Art Trade Guild. Slagging the Guild off without know the implications of this, doesnt do anyone any favours.
The level of uninformed rubbish about to be spoken about the guild, will make me sad. If the only questions people would ask themselves, is "what is the guild going to do for me?" and 'What am I going to do for the Guild' we would be far better off.
Whilst a member of this forum, I have listened and watched very carfully over the past year at the postings re the Guild, and it looks like the forum members want a strong trade representation, then join the guild and change it from the inside if you feel it's no good. No good shouting and whinging from the outside, do something about it.
I participate on the Guild's Framers Committee 'Voluntarily' not because I think the Fine Art Trade Guild, is the dogs gonads, but because I am passionate about the industry I work in, and passionate about the standards the Guild have set. I want to help influence this industry so therefore I participate.
One of the main items I am most passionate about is standards, not only the Guild's standards, but also the standrads we set ourselves, that why I organise courses for GCF's, GCF Seminars and the like, you'd think that someone who went to all the bother of studying, taking and passing the GCF exam would fell the same? (being far too naive here for my own good) Again this is all done on a voluntary basis, Why? Because I want to help make this industry better! My wife is also the loal Branch Master for Northern Ireland, again all done voluntarily, Why? because she, like me is passionate about the industry, and wanst to help influence the changes required to make this organsation better, not just for her business, but for all.
We work from the inside, do all our shouting, negotiating, bartering (call it what you will) around a table during committee meetings, we listen to all the complaints during Branch meetings and via telephone, and we report back to the Guild office and get complaints sorted and rectified, we also pass on ideas, suggestions to the office that believe it or not, do all get disscussed at meetings in London, some are put into practice, some are not, thats what an organisation does, its democratic and continually works for the good of the industry.
For those who are not prepared to fork out £175 (£3 a week) to be a part of the trade association and participate, then before you start whinging, you've no right to critisize those who are at least trying to in good faith.
And lastly, for those who are not members, ex-members, just thinking of becomming a member, just remember two little snippets, if your business is framing to the highest standards possible, (as it should be) who was it helped and negotiated the standard of materials such as mountboards, prints, inks, etc. that the manufacturers now all produce?, And who is it that will continue to negotiate with other manufacturers, for instance, glass, backing boards, tapes, etc. to make your materials perform to the highest possible standrads .....Yes, you got it, the Fine Art Trade Guild. So even if your not a member, in some small way, you got to at least thankful for that!
Steven
Someone Once Said 'Knowledge Is Power'
Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
GCF Examination Centre
Accredited Valiani Demonstration / Training Centre
Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
GCF Examination Centre
Accredited Valiani Demonstration / Training Centre
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Dermot
My instinct and experiences is that this can only be very good for the FATG, it broadens their platform both at home and abroad, which can only lead to good things, I wish everyone the best with this new endeavour.
As I have retired from the picture framing business to concentrate on other business interest I have not voted in the poll.
The best to all
Dermot
As I have retired from the picture framing business to concentrate on other business interest I have not voted in the poll.
The best to all
Dermot
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markw
Steven
Not sure if you think my comments are sniping or not . I would be the first to support your comment " what can I do for the FATG - or to be honest my business - i wont be the first to agree that the guild do enough, and that isnt implied as a critical comment towards all those people for whos commitment i am very grateful. I have to say that i am very disapointed at the take up rate of uk fine art businesses - and i think that if you look at the figures you will find that a large percentage of trade suppliers are members - a tiny percentage of grass roots artists and framing businesses arent. I appreciate that the guild is well represented by grass roots framers at court level and i see this as a good sign of things to come. I always believe that any business should conquer its home market before it takes on the world - simple reasoning - if you cant sell at home you wont fair better by trying to sell elswhere.
I dont believe the fatg are as effective as they could be - by a long way. Diluting resources by even a small amount will distract an already disapointing effort to create a trade body that truly represents all aspects of the fine art trade - believing that they can move into europe and set the standards that the european market can aspire to seems to me to be farcical. The FATG should look carefully at the statistics - if they gather them - they represent a very small number of fine art related businesses in the uk - thats fact.
As for doing something from the inside - its not always the most effective way of moving forward - as an insider you can become complacent about the failings of the body you stand for. I hope my comments will be seen as those of a critical friend.
I didnt just whinge on this forum but also emailed my comments to Rosie Sumner - I recieved a very detailed email back - it didnt convince me that adding to the managements workload wasnt a bad move, but it did convince me that the decision wouldnt be irreversible if it didnt work out.
To address your last point - most of the manufacturers recognise the point of a trade association that sets standards - but they stand for absolutly nothing if the person cutting holes in the mountboard either doesnt know what the standard means - or doesnt care. I would go one step further and say that belonging to the FATG could actually make my business less competetive in a situation where an uninformed public chooses to buy competetivly based on price and not quality. I will back up my point by noting that within a 50 mile radius of my business not one of the larger framing businesses is a member of the FATG - or claim to have any GCF qualified staff, yet i know that i compete directly for business with many artists using them purely on the basis that they are cheap.
To be jubilant about a link to a european manufacturers association is to ignore the fact that we still have a lot of work to be done at home.
Not sure if you think my comments are sniping or not . I would be the first to support your comment " what can I do for the FATG - or to be honest my business - i wont be the first to agree that the guild do enough, and that isnt implied as a critical comment towards all those people for whos commitment i am very grateful. I have to say that i am very disapointed at the take up rate of uk fine art businesses - and i think that if you look at the figures you will find that a large percentage of trade suppliers are members - a tiny percentage of grass roots artists and framing businesses arent. I appreciate that the guild is well represented by grass roots framers at court level and i see this as a good sign of things to come. I always believe that any business should conquer its home market before it takes on the world - simple reasoning - if you cant sell at home you wont fair better by trying to sell elswhere.
I dont believe the fatg are as effective as they could be - by a long way. Diluting resources by even a small amount will distract an already disapointing effort to create a trade body that truly represents all aspects of the fine art trade - believing that they can move into europe and set the standards that the european market can aspire to seems to me to be farcical. The FATG should look carefully at the statistics - if they gather them - they represent a very small number of fine art related businesses in the uk - thats fact.
As for doing something from the inside - its not always the most effective way of moving forward - as an insider you can become complacent about the failings of the body you stand for. I hope my comments will be seen as those of a critical friend.
I didnt just whinge on this forum but also emailed my comments to Rosie Sumner - I recieved a very detailed email back - it didnt convince me that adding to the managements workload wasnt a bad move, but it did convince me that the decision wouldnt be irreversible if it didnt work out.
To address your last point - most of the manufacturers recognise the point of a trade association that sets standards - but they stand for absolutly nothing if the person cutting holes in the mountboard either doesnt know what the standard means - or doesnt care. I would go one step further and say that belonging to the FATG could actually make my business less competetive in a situation where an uninformed public chooses to buy competetivly based on price and not quality. I will back up my point by noting that within a 50 mile radius of my business not one of the larger framing businesses is a member of the FATG - or claim to have any GCF qualified staff, yet i know that i compete directly for business with many artists using them purely on the basis that they are cheap.
To be jubilant about a link to a european manufacturers association is to ignore the fact that we still have a lot of work to be done at home.
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SquareFrames
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Mon 23 Feb, 2004 9:37 am
- Location: Dromore, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
- Organisation: Dromore Picture Framing / Down School of
- Interests: Reading, relaxing, and funnily enough, its hard to stop thinking of framing
- Location: Dromore, Northern Ireland
- Contact:
Europe Here We Come
Hi Markw,
Yes, I do consider your comments as coming from a critical friend, but I would like to add, that as an insider, I and quite a few of the other committee members are never complacent about the organisation, we ensure that our voices are heard and even if it means that our ideas, etc. are not acted upon in one particular instance, we keep striving to make the organisation better. There are many people on all the committees, and eveything that is takled of, discussed, agreed, etc. in one committee then must be ratified by the full Court, and because its a democracy, not all will agree, etc. But the stiving will always continue.
Getting off this subject slightly, (again) I, like you compete for business from so called cheaper framers for artists work, etc., but I have found that artists that make a concious decision to have their work framed 'cheaper' all seem to eventually come back when they find their work isnt selling because of shoddy workmanship and sub-standard materials, so I made a consious decision to stop competeing. My problem is, within a 10 mile radius, I have at least 10 other high street framers, and a huge contract framer, 5 of those being GCF framers, and a few garage framers doing absolutely rubbish work. (But they dont count, I end up doing a lot of their reframing jobs). 18 miles away is Belfast with a huge amount of framers, some GCF, most not. This is a small country, so your competitor may be on your doorstep, but I dont let it worry me anymore, (I used to, maybe I am just getting old, not complacent) I just do my best work, concentrate on upholding my standards, and know that 'They Will Be Back' and boy do they come back........
Talk soon,
Steven
Yes, I do consider your comments as coming from a critical friend, but I would like to add, that as an insider, I and quite a few of the other committee members are never complacent about the organisation, we ensure that our voices are heard and even if it means that our ideas, etc. are not acted upon in one particular instance, we keep striving to make the organisation better. There are many people on all the committees, and eveything that is takled of, discussed, agreed, etc. in one committee then must be ratified by the full Court, and because its a democracy, not all will agree, etc. But the stiving will always continue.
Getting off this subject slightly, (again) I, like you compete for business from so called cheaper framers for artists work, etc., but I have found that artists that make a concious decision to have their work framed 'cheaper' all seem to eventually come back when they find their work isnt selling because of shoddy workmanship and sub-standard materials, so I made a consious decision to stop competeing. My problem is, within a 10 mile radius, I have at least 10 other high street framers, and a huge contract framer, 5 of those being GCF framers, and a few garage framers doing absolutely rubbish work. (But they dont count, I end up doing a lot of their reframing jobs). 18 miles away is Belfast with a huge amount of framers, some GCF, most not. This is a small country, so your competitor may be on your doorstep, but I dont let it worry me anymore, (I used to, maybe I am just getting old, not complacent) I just do my best work, concentrate on upholding my standards, and know that 'They Will Be Back' and boy do they come back........
Talk soon,
Steven
Someone Once Said 'Knowledge Is Power'
Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
GCF Examination Centre
Accredited Valiani Demonstration / Training Centre
Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
GCF Examination Centre
Accredited Valiani Demonstration / Training Centre
-
Keith
FATG - EMMA
Mark,
I think your comments about FATG doing secretarial services for EMMA are a little unfair. Have you ever attended an EMMA meeting in Europe?
I have and I and tell you that the FATG thanks to Rosie's enthusiasm, and hard work, will benefit from this great opportunity. EMMA will also benefit from Rosie's marketing experience. And FATG will get paid for this service.
Before jumping in and criticising FATG, I think it would be better to get more information about EMMA. EMMA could have easily got secretarial services from many other sources, it is a feather in FATG's cap that they were the first choice. Probably because Rosie did a superb presentation at an EMMA meeting in Zurich 2002, about the FATG and Mountboard standards.
Keith
By the way on your profile you describe yourself as a "Proffesional" framer.I think you will find there is only one "f" in professional!
I think your comments about FATG doing secretarial services for EMMA are a little unfair. Have you ever attended an EMMA meeting in Europe?
I have and I and tell you that the FATG thanks to Rosie's enthusiasm, and hard work, will benefit from this great opportunity. EMMA will also benefit from Rosie's marketing experience. And FATG will get paid for this service.
Before jumping in and criticising FATG, I think it would be better to get more information about EMMA. EMMA could have easily got secretarial services from many other sources, it is a feather in FATG's cap that they were the first choice. Probably because Rosie did a superb presentation at an EMMA meeting in Zurich 2002, about the FATG and Mountboard standards.
Keith
By the way on your profile you describe yourself as a "Proffesional" framer.I think you will find there is only one "f" in professional!
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SquareFrames
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Mon 23 Feb, 2004 9:37 am
- Location: Dromore, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
- Organisation: Dromore Picture Framing / Down School of
- Interests: Reading, relaxing, and funnily enough, its hard to stop thinking of framing
- Location: Dromore, Northern Ireland
- Contact:
Europe Here We Come
Hi,
Hi Keith, thank goodness for some straight talking about the Guild. Only those, like yourself and myself can zsee the benefits of this situation. I do wish some would sit back and wait until they see the benefits instead of jumping on what I personally call 'The Guild Whinge'
Steven
Hi Keith, thank goodness for some straight talking about the Guild. Only those, like yourself and myself can zsee the benefits of this situation. I do wish some would sit back and wait until they see the benefits instead of jumping on what I personally call 'The Guild Whinge'
Steven
Someone Once Said 'Knowledge Is Power'
Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
GCF Examination Centre
Accredited Valiani Demonstration / Training Centre
Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
GCF Examination Centre
Accredited Valiani Demonstration / Training Centre
-
markw
Keith -leave my favourite spelling mistake out of this - could do with a spell checker - but its generally regarded as bad manners to point out spelling mistakes on forums.
I dont think you understand the point of a forum, but at least you have contributed to the whinge. I would rather call it a debate. Both you and Steven seem to believe that access to the inner sanctums of the guild give you the right to preach the party line. I am afraid that most framers believe that the FATG is a complete waste of time - they will treat guild standards with contempt. They are accompanied by a general public who dont have the first clue about FATG - GCF or any applied standards - they will wander in to there local framing shop and blissfully accept any old rubbish presented to them. As a profffesional framer I do think that standards are important - i also think that the FATG fail miserably to promote them outside the guild.
The comments that you have made re Rosie are good to hear - Not sure where we would see so positive a feedback of information outside of this forum - so my point is made - we have a positive spin to my outwardly negative whinge. So Keith dont just log on as a guest - your comments will be willingly and robustly debated by every whinger on the forum - and by the look of the postings recently we could do with a few more - Steven and I could seem to be over contributing.
I dont think you understand the point of a forum, but at least you have contributed to the whinge. I would rather call it a debate. Both you and Steven seem to believe that access to the inner sanctums of the guild give you the right to preach the party line. I am afraid that most framers believe that the FATG is a complete waste of time - they will treat guild standards with contempt. They are accompanied by a general public who dont have the first clue about FATG - GCF or any applied standards - they will wander in to there local framing shop and blissfully accept any old rubbish presented to them. As a profffesional framer I do think that standards are important - i also think that the FATG fail miserably to promote them outside the guild.
The comments that you have made re Rosie are good to hear - Not sure where we would see so positive a feedback of information outside of this forum - so my point is made - we have a positive spin to my outwardly negative whinge. So Keith dont just log on as a guest - your comments will be willingly and robustly debated by every whinger on the forum - and by the look of the postings recently we could do with a few more - Steven and I could seem to be over contributing.
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Merlin
- Posts: 1538
- Joined: Thu 05 Jun, 2003 5:50 pm
- Location: Cornwall
- Organisation: Merlin Mounts
- Interests: Aviation
MarkW.. A little unfair. I too contribute to this forum. I have held back commenting on this particular thread, because I do not know enough about EMMA and the europe thing. However, I have emailed other people privately..
Again MarkW and unfortunately I do have to agree with you about the Guild promoting themselves properly. Especially in the South and West of England.
This is a discussion forum afterall and EVERY BODY is entitled to their opinion.
One thing this forum has done, is certainly advertise - whether constructively or destructively I am not too sure - that they are around. I would like to see just how many 'hits' this site does get . John can you help there ??
So in a way we are advertising and promoting the FATG ourselves.
Again MarkW and unfortunately I do have to agree with you about the Guild promoting themselves properly. Especially in the South and West of England.
This is a discussion forum afterall and EVERY BODY is entitled to their opinion.
One thing this forum has done, is certainly advertise - whether constructively or destructively I am not too sure - that they are around. I would like to see just how many 'hits' this site does get . John can you help there ??
So in a way we are advertising and promoting the FATG ourselves.
John GCF
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markw
Merlin - it wasnt my intention to criticise others for not posting - i was merely observing that there hadnt been many postings.
I know that i am quick to moan about the FATG - but only because I believe that its an essential part of any industry to have a trade body - the fact that I think the FATG under represent the number of businesses out here is a reality - its not something that i imagine is the case.
Keiths comments, I suspect, come from someone on the manufacturing side of the business. (mountboard ?) It would be good to have some more opinions from him. I opened a trade mag today and found a short article about EMMA - I may yet decide that the FATG have made a wise decision - we will see. Of one thing I am sure - open debate is a good thing for any organisation - the FATG should have a forum of its own - or should support and encourage this one.
I know that i am quick to moan about the FATG - but only because I believe that its an essential part of any industry to have a trade body - the fact that I think the FATG under represent the number of businesses out here is a reality - its not something that i imagine is the case.
Keiths comments, I suspect, come from someone on the manufacturing side of the business. (mountboard ?) It would be good to have some more opinions from him. I opened a trade mag today and found a short article about EMMA - I may yet decide that the FATG have made a wise decision - we will see. Of one thing I am sure - open debate is a good thing for any organisation - the FATG should have a forum of its own - or should support and encourage this one.