Conservation Glass -

[framejunkie]

I make quite a lot of frames with UV filter glazing, but I'm not always happy with it.

Several years ago i had a couple of complaints about finished pieces showing the trademark Tru Vue Conservation Clear ripple effect so since then I've always shown the customer what they are getting and pointed out the ripple. Some don't worry, some opt for UV acrylic instead, some go the whole hog and get museum glass( ).

For some applications Tru Vue is totally wrong - made the mistake once of making a really deep box frame where the artwork(a very delicate pencil drawing) was about 50mm beneath the glass - fitted it up and it was like "Where'd the art go?"
I only buy glass from Glass & Mirror, but i am wondering if there are UV filtering products on the market of which I'm unaware, and which provide the protection that Tru Vue does.

If this topic has been covered previously, apologies, but the search facility threw up so many threads for Conservation Glass...

[markw]

I was reading this posting and the thought occurred that I had just framed a piece using TVCC and hadn't noticed the ripple - so I went to my glass store and picked up an off cut - its no longer noticeably ripply. This is a new box - delivered six weeks ago so wouldn't be surprised if the product has been improved.

[kev@frames]

Likewise ive never noticed ripples, so I just had a look at our tru-vue, and no ripples in ours either. (tru Vue Conservation Clear)

The trademark imprint is also right on the edge now, so i guess that would be covered by most rebates.
Maybe the spec has changed recently?

TVCC is a "new line" for us, we used to order it as required, but this year I've been keeping it in as a "stock line" and I'm finding it surprisingly easy to sell up on certain items.

The big silver stickers supplied with it are a bit of an overkill though.

we went for tru-vue pretty much because its one our supplier keeps in stock, so i have nothing to compare it to, but apart from the coating side getting easily scratched (offcuts in storage) we are having no problems at all with it.

[Roboframer]

All TruVu UV filtering glass has the 'ripple' effect - always has. It also has a tint. The only product that does not show either that well is Conservation Reflection Control (CRC) - but CRC is 'fuzzy' like all NR products, so ripples and tints are the least of the worries.

If TruVu lost that ripple effect they'd be shouting it off the rooftops - grab a lite of your latest batch and catch the reflection of a flourescent strip and tell me you see no 'fleck' or ripple.

Or maybe my eye test is overdue.

I only buy glass from Glass & Mirror, but i am wondering if there are UV filtering products on the market of which I'm unaware, and which provide the protection that Tru Vue does....

There are products, but not with the same protection. Glass & Mirror sell 'G&M Museum' and Nielsen sell 'Clearcolor plus UV'

It's exactly the same product - made by Flabeg (compare list prices and if you already deal with both companies pit them against each other - you'd be surprised - also look at the box quantities of each supplier - the cheapest, by not much may have more sheets per box - so more initial outlay for you - etc etc etc) - it's Waterwhite - zero colour shift - no ripple - you can score either side.

The penalty is 90% UV filtering compared to TruVu's 99+%. There's always a penalty - discoloration/rippling vv less protection.

G&M used to do a Schott product - Mirrorguard - no ripple, comparable protection but still discoloration.

For the measly 8 or 9% difference I opt for the Waterwhite product - but if preservation is the be and end all I'll go for CC and on the rare occasions where reflection is an equal issue I'll go for TruVu Museum - happens so infrequently that I only buy it cut to size from G&M.

PS - New G&M price list arrived today - haven't had time to compare to their last one - wonder how it will under Wessex - have they a monopoly on glass in my area? Pretty much I reckon!

Also noticed that my 2.5% discount for C.O.D. has dissapeared under Wessex - so I did not pay the driver on my last delivery - then I got a letter "According to our records you are a cash customer - blah blah"

So I rang them - said they'd get back to me - failed to.

30 days? 2.5% for cash? All the same to me - buggered if I'll pay full price on delivery though!

[Roboframer]

PS - New G&M price list arrived today - haven't had time to compare to their last one - wonder how it will under Wessex

Well, everything I compared bar standard 2mm paper float has gone up, and I think you may find that although that has gone down, the 'discounts' have been amended (The full list price is just silly - surely no-one pays that?) and you'll actually be paying more. Could be wrong, will compare invoices soon.

TruVu conservation clear has gone up by 25% and Wessex were always slightly cheaper than G&M - list that is - G&M were cheaper for me as I had a discount set up with them, plus the COD discount, but paid list from Wessex.

[John]

Presumably the ripple is caused by the uneven application of the UV coating to the surface of the glass.

If this is the case, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that, under certain conditions, and over a long period of time, the ripples would become 'imprinted' on the artwork due to uneven filtering?

[Roboframer]

Well, I hope not! - but if you shine a torch through it on to a flat surface, you see no pattern against that surface as you would if you shone it through a mesh.

Anyway - I'm sure TruVu's competitors would've picked up on that if it were an issue, as indeed would many more impartial professionals. No harm in asking one, or the maufacturer.

[iantheframer]

I have just had a w delivery of cc and can confirm the ripple is still present, suggest you check again, if it is definitely absent, you may have a defective sheet

The printing on the sheet can easily be removed with Acetone if it gets in the way

[markw]

I have just had a w delivery of cc and can confirm the ripple is still present, suggest you check again, if it is definitely absent, you may have a defective sheet

The printing on the sheet can easily be removed with Acetone if it gets in the way

That's a handy tip - thanks

[kev@frames]

yes, cancel my opinion that the ripple has gone its far less obvious on the coated side. ahem. Its less of a ripple than "budget" glass, all the same.

The TVCC does have a slight tint.

I think these things are all outweighed by the UV protection, particularly as TVCC is not prohibitively expensive. But thats just imho. I dont think we would be able to shift museum glass at all due to price resistance.

Great tip about the acetone. Thanks Ian.

[Roboframer]

I dont think we would be able to shift museum glass at all due to price resistance.

Does that mean you have not tried?

I don't suppose you'll be getting the best deal down there, not being on a van route of a direct supplier like Glass & Mirror. How much would a sheet cost you? (priced at box quantity of 4 sheets)

I don't like TruVu Museum - it's CC with an AR coating - don't see the point of an optical coating over an already optically impaired product.

I use G&M 'Museum' or Nielsen 'Clearcolour plus' - same product (I know I've typed those exact words and probably all that follows here before somewhere - sorry) - slightly different prices. G&M is slightly less at the mo'.

It's waterwhite - zero colour shift and no ripple - but the price you pay is 8 or 9% less UV protection.

I've got a comparison display on the counter - 3 keys on a black background in a shadowbox - free from Nielsen. Plus some of my own stuff, like that London bus I posted here somewhere. These displays blow people away and I really shift the stuff - larger items not so much admittedly, but it's nice when that does happen.

I pass my discount on and charge £28 per sq ft - so a small item, like that bus - say 12x10", would cost £23, less the standard glass (thru'pence!) it would replace; included in my basic frame price.

[framejunkie]

(I know I've typed those exact words and probably all that follows here before somewhere - sorry)

Why the apology John? Your dedication to sharing your knowledge here is unsurpassed, and i, for one, am damned glad of it

I find that with the museum glass, some customers hear how much more it'll be a go rather pale and change the subject, but others go for it in a big way. Having a demonstrator handy really helps - i got one for G&M Water-white museum free from G&M. It helps that i have strip lights directly above my bench so when i lay the sampler next to some standard float and ask the customer to compare the reflections verily they bow down in awe and wonder at the miracle they've witnessed. If the customer knows that the frame will be hung in a bright room, especially opposite a window, i will always point out the benefits of Museum glass.

One regular customer of mine is a gallerist with a very bright space in West London - most of their wall space is on the wall opposite south-facing windows, and they glaze everything i frame for them with Water-white museum because if they didn't nobody would buy anything from them - or that's what they say. Given that they represent some of the best and most highly regarded miniaturists in the whole of India and Pakistan and that the quality of the work is fantastic, i suspect that the work sells itself anyway, but who am i to tell the gallery not to use the best stuff? Thankfully they never have work on the walls for more than a few weeks, so the 10% of UV which gets through doesn't have time to wreck the artwork Before you damn me, they are aware that the glazing is only blocking 90%

[kev@frames]

Robo: Yeah, you are right now i think about it-

I probably do mean I have not tried very hard - or to be honest tried much at all- to sell museum glass, on the occasions when i have suggested it, the cost has always been a severe wallet attack for the customer. Have only put museum glass in three orders in fifteen years (so far). But times-they-are-a-changing..... To be honest I didn't sell much TVCC till i started keeping sheets in stock.

so - "Must try harder" - that was on my school reports, just under "does not play well with others".

[Roboframer]

I have a lot of fun with this glass. Reverse psychology works in a LOT of cases.

"That's £65, with normal glass - (pause for reaction - customer doesn't blink - or maybe if even if they do) ...... or you could have THIS glass" (tap tap)

"Wow/is there glass in front of that?/What glass?" .... etc

"Yeah - but it's expensive"

"An arm and a leg, I bet"

"Well, definitely the leg - usually doubles the price of the frame" (Continue writing the order out, whilst looking for signs - a lot of times I get the look - 'Oh - so you think I can't afford it eh? - Well try me')

[kev@frames]

Its only recently that we have started offering conservation glass routinely, i expect when we get into the swing of it, I might try out keeping some museum glass in stock.

What i do is get the order taken, then introduce something like "this quite precious, obviously.... for another £xxx you can have this conservation glass..."
Seems to sell easier that way than giving the option during the pricing/order-taking process

Im making up some example displays, not in the hope that it will sell itself, but at this stage really to remun us to consider suggesting TVCC glass when required when deling with customers.

[Roboframer]

What i do is get the order taken, then introduce something like "this quite precious, obviously.... for another £xxx you can have this conservation glass..."
Seems to sell easier that way than giving the option during the pricing/order-taking process

Same here. The old saying 'You can't sell up' definitely has its place in the design stage - but when that is done and dusted - non-design things definitely can be sold up to. Works for McDonalds doesn't it - 'wanna go large?'

You've already secured a deal - nothing to lose by attempting an upgrade. Whether it's just for the sake of it or not - is up to you.