The future

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sarah
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The future

Post by sarah »

Lady and Gentlemen of the forum your opinion is requested.

I am interested in getting a little bit of a debate going - now folks when I say debate I mean something friendly no flame wars please we are one big happy framing family and should play nice :wink: :wink:

Ok - I am a member of several forums and think that they are a wonderful tool. They allow people of like minds/careers/sporting interests to converse with each other more or less instantly. So why has this little haven/fountain of great knowledge/community not jumping with ideas, conversation, tips, and even arguments?

I have been promted to post this for two reasons - 1) There have been no posts since Monday and 2) Mr Binghams agony corner in the recent picture business.

I love Pete's column he is funny and very knowledgable but some of the questions asked need instant answers not a few months of a wait before the answer is published in the next magazine. In addition it is just Pete's opinion that is being put forward. On a forum like ours there a number of ways/suppliers/suggestions being made almost instantly, by people working in the trade daily.

So what I am asking you is - how can we presaude more folks to use the forum, and how can we intice those that are already part of the family to make a more regular input?


Thinking caps on boys and Norah. Look forward to reading your opinions. :D
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SquareFrames
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Post by SquareFrames »

Hi Sarah,

A few ways of getting more people to paticipate in the forum, is to
(1) simply advertise in the relevant magazines, and hopefully it would create some interest.
(2) 'buy' the mailing lists from the relevant representative bodies i.e. FATG and PPFA, and mail shot everyone.
(3) Another way without using much monetary resources would be to simply look through the Yellow Pages and mail shot local framers / galleries, etc.
(4) Invitations to certain dignitaries in the industry, such as Picture Business, Pete Bingham himself, (remember back last year, I did ask him personally, he said because of work commitments, his column in PB, etc. he would not get invloved) This is true of the man, knowing him extremely well, and dealing with Pete on a weekly basis, I know unfortunately he has no time to devote to this or any other forum. But there are others who may give up a few minutes when called upon.
(5) Word of mouth seems to be a good way of generating any type of extra business
(6) Web site traffic and listing on search engines
(7) Email invitations to other framers / galleries, like I got like the one I go at the beginning of 2004

I agree with you that the forum is a wondeful tool, to find hint and tips, for sale items, general discussion, etc., but unfortunately some will use it simply as a soap box to slate representative bodies and to vent anger, disgust at them, etc. and then subject in question would just get out of hand and become personal, which is no good to anyone at all.That is probably why one of the bodies in question doesnt get involved, they perfer more constructive in house critisism, where they can if possible act upon it, and to have someone sitting monitoring and naswering the forum on any subject they are involved in, does take someone away from other duties. Dont get me wrong, I wish they would get invloved, but I can see where they are coming from. Representative bodies do a great job, some like them, some dont, spme think so, some dont, thats our personal decision, but to allow direct slagging off, slating in an open forum does no one any good, and that includes the forum managers for allowing it.

I agree its been quite quiet the past week or so my own excuse I have been up to my eyes, and havent had a chance, but I do have one or two postings I wish to make, so will get round to it over the weekend.

One thing to remember is this, the forum is still in its infancy, Rome wasnt built in a day, have patience, in my view its doing a great job and will get better.

Steven
Someone Once Said 'Knowledge Is Power'
Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
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evanstheframe
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The Future

Post by evanstheframe »

Hi All,
Nice one Sarah. I am a newbie to the framing world. I have posted a few times here and had some great replies and help from framers out there who are willing to pass on their help and advice. (Special thanks to Steven AKA SquareFrames). However, I am suprised how little is posted. I like to check daily for new posts to see if I can learn something only to be find yet again no new posts.
It would be great to have more imput seeing as I need to learn as much as possible. And who better to learn off than you people in the trade. However small the advice and yes to some it may be teaching people to suck eggs, but there is always someone who will be glad of the advice and be thankful it was posted.
I for one would be glad to see daily posts to help me along. It would be great to see a newbie section with weekly posts and pictures on framing projects. For eg A start to finish box frame or a difficult cut mount. How about a start to finish mounted painting. Some of you are now thinking "What is this guy on". Well lets think about this. We all have to start somewhere. Think back to when you started. What tape do I use? What mount? How should I cut and fix that. Is it of the right grade and standard? All these things can be shown as start to finish projects. Who knows even as a top framer you may come up against a project and say to yourself, "Why didnt I think of that". From what I have read on the forum there is a great deal to learn to achieve a top standard of workmanship. I was a fitter for 21 years and took pride in my trade and wanted to be the best at what I did. Now I have retired and taken up framing I want to be the best I can and want to offer my customers the best quality I can. With each others help I can aim towards that end. And as years go by I too can pass on the tips I have picked up from this forum to ensure that the frame trade goes on and not swallowed up by the cheap frames of Ikea, Wilkinsons and the likes.
Please post more however small the advice or question. Keep the forum ticking and the new members rolling in.

Evanstheframe.
sarah
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Post by sarah »

Thank you Evans for your appreciation of the question.

Steve you make some useful points thank you for that - have to see what the auld fella has to say :wink:

I appreciate that the FATG or F$*% as some people know them don't want to post or get involved but I think that they should, not necessarily as a FATG person but as a framer/publisher/person in the know. I am aware that there has been a bit of 'banter' about the guild but I think that they should use some of the criticisms to make a better organisation rather than licking their wounds and crying in the corner about how people don't like them. More would be involved, actively involved, if they felt the guild was a body of principles and a body that owned up to mistakes and made moves to change. At the end of the day if we get a complaint ( :shock: ) we act on it and change if necessary as well as thanking the customer for bringing it to our attention. The guild is a business and we are the customers so as customers do we not have a right to complain in the hope that things will change for the better.

Sorry rant over - well maybe not I'm female so I'll probably bring the subject back up in a month or so when you lot thought it was dealt with :wink: :wink:
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Merlin
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Post by Merlin »

Well done Sarah.
I am in total agreement with you.
I am very suprised at the number of reps who come into the shop and DO NOT KNOW that this site exists. Well they do get their ears bent and certainly know by the time they leave.

It would be good if the main picture framing magazines would acknowledge this site and run some advertising. They would also benefit in the end.

I am also suprised by the lack of 'photos' sent in for the 'Faux Pas' section. Surely I am not the only framer who gets a fair amount of 'Re-works'.
John GCF
markw

Post by markw »

Sarah
Some forums have a means of inviting other people to participate. Alternativly if we make an effort to email one other framer - big snag here is that on the whole this industry is still in the dark ages when it comes to modern technology. most of the framers who I know locally and have their email address already look at the forum - some even participate.

As for Stevens remarks about the FATG - what a load of twaddle - inhouse critiscm implies that they are worried that the members might get wind of just how inefficient they are as an organisation. The FATG should be embracing this forum as a breath of fresh air - the dusty old back rooms of Empress Place could do with having the windows thrown open.

As a member of this forum who often critiscises the FATG i would remark that I rarely make a comment on the forum that i havnt made directly to the FATG themselves - I am amazed at the number of comments made to the FATG that fail to get any response - they like to keep the inhouse critiscism well and truly inhouse.

Good forums arent just about hints and tips - they have to be topical - debating the things that matter in our industry. I would like to see some of the higher profile "pundits" voicing their opinions - To claim that people dont have time is daft - it takes a few minutes to tap away a couple of sentences - so Steven and others, It wouldnt be a forum if we didnt disagree - and the forum will only gather momentum with good quality debate - so get encouraging all those framers who have an opinion about our industry - you might even find one or two who think the FATG have an amazingly fresh insight on the future of our industry!
Framing Norah
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Post by Framing Norah »

An organization that encourages open unfettered discussion amongst all concerned parties is surely a healthy organization.
FN
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Post by More So »

Why would any organization which supported a forum such as this feel the need for constant monitoring? Would it not be better to stand back and learn while letting the members get on with it?

As a relative newcomer, I must have missed it, but I have not come across any of the 'slagging' that has been mentioned in this thread. Anybody care to provide a link? In fact, compared with most of the other fora in my experience, the members here are very well behaved.
You will never get the last word on a belligerent buffoon
sarah
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Post by sarah »

More So - very clever name mate.

'slagging' you are right there hasn't been any 'slagging', constructive critism perhaps, never 'slagging' :) :wink:

I think that it also needs to be pointed out that when someone makes a comment about a certain professional body the comment I would imagine it is not directed at the membership/individuals, intead it is directed at the management and those who 'run' that organisation. So any suggestions made should never be taken personally by those who choose to be members. Afterall those who choose to be members are the ones who are most likely trying to change things for the better.
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Re: The Future

Post by John »

evanstheframe wrote: I for one would be glad to see daily posts to help me along. It would be great to see a newbie section with weekly posts and pictures on framing projects. For eg A start to finish box frame or a difficult cut mount. How about a start to finish mounted painting. Some of you are now thinking "What is this guy on". Well lets think about this. We all have to start somewhere. Think back to when you started. What tape do I use? What mount? How should I cut and fix that.
Apart from Stephen, who is in contact with newcomers on a daily basis, the rest of us have mostly forgotten what it was like to be learning the ropes. Stuff that we now take for granted, once had to be learned. You are in a good position to serve as an example to others, who will be following in your footsteps, by posing these questions here.

Many here are more than willing to share their knowledge, often gained by trial and error, in order to help those new to the business.

If it were to prove popular, perhaps a "Beginners Corner" could be set up.
evanstheframe
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The Future

Post by evanstheframe »

Many thanks for that John I hope your words are taken up. There is never a time when you can stop learning. Sometimes just a little idea that someone has had can mean a big difference to others. The more you know the more you can pass on. Lets make this a forum where we can help each other become better at what we do.

Evanstheframe
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Merlin
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Post by Merlin »

John, sorry but for the first time, I do a little intake of breath. a "Beginners Corner" !!
I had hoped that the new section 'Blunders, Gaffs and Faux Pas' that I asked you to include, would have been a prelude to this. Unfortunately, it really hasnt been taken up and not very many examples have been entered.
There is no better lesson for the newbies or even as a gentle reminder to the more experienced; than to be shown what will happen if things go wrong, the wrong techniques or materials are used.

As for professional bodies helping this forum out. I am already on record and like Mark, I have not nor will I say anything on here, that I have not already said face to face with a certain MD. Even though that brick wall hurts, I will continue to voice my concerns. I am a member of the FATG and a GCF, so I believe I am entitled to.

I also believe that the FATG is blinkered in their approach, they are missing such a PR coup here. By not having a voice or any type of input they are not advertising themselves worldwide as our 'professional body', They are missing the chance to increase the membership, because believe it or not. Not everybody knows about the FATG and what their objectives are.

An example quoted already on this forum SW Cornwall (yellow pages) has over 81 picture framers. Yet only 15 or so (FATG Directory) are members. Only 2.. YES TWO are GCF's.

As long as this forum goes forward - as it is already albeit slowly - and criticism is constructive and not destructive then everybody will learn, as everybody can teach. Even the newbies, they may come across a technique that they have not seen before and query it on here.
That query gets us all thinking. By thinking we learn.

Sarah, a good thread and some useful discussion. Well done.
John GCF
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Post by Framing Norah »

Just who is being slated/slagged off here?
have someone sitting monitoring and naswering the forum on any subject they are involved in, does take someone away from other duties
Framers would have to be watched in case they might express an independent thought!

What monumental arrogance!

I know that you are not the originator of this sentiment Steven, or you wouldn't be so involved with this forum. But perhaps it is time to think about the real reason why some feel so threatened by the forum. I mean a reason that has the ring of truth, not some rationalized gobbeldy-gook!

Forget about the management (could it be that they want to control too much?), get some sound court people involved, If they were behind the forum, I'm sure John could set one or two of them up as forum moderators to look out for the interests of the FATG.

Surely anyone, who has the best interests of the ordinary framer at heart, and who has a bit of influence within the industry, would be shouting about the forum from the rooftops. Informing the framers of this great resource. Instead it is the forum that is being slagged off! And, sneakily, "in-house", rather than out in the open for us all to see. If there is a reason why we do not all benefit from chatting amongst ourselves, let's all hear it! I would ask myself, Steven, the next time I hear the forum being slated, does this person really have the ordinary framer's interest at heart?
FN
markw

Post by markw »

Framing Norah - Here here!

Straightforward honest open communication with the people who pay the bills should be the expected norm. I know that the forum is watched - i have feedback about the comments made - why are they so paranoid.

Sarah - this got things moving again! Well done. sorry its gone a bit off thread - but Steven is guarenteed to start a good debate. (thats a compliment - honestly).

Not sure that a beginers corner is a good idea - I suspect that newbies join the forum because we have a fair degree of representable knowledge - I would always recomend anyone starting in this business to take a short training course - it's money well invested in your future career - and could well save you a lot of frustration and lost customers.

Despite my obvious frustration with FATG management I firmly believe that the FATG at branch level is the best investment in time and money that can be made - I have knocked Steven's comments regarding the FATG - but i wont undermine his commitment to the trade - especially his local branch - they are very lucky to have him - I hope they show due appreciation. It's interesting to note that many of the framers who I know who couldnt care less about a forum like this - also couldnt care less about joining a trade association - getting qualified - or giving their customers a quality job - most of them dont seem to enjoy their job - or make much money out of it - draw your own conclusions.
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SquareFrames
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Post by SquareFrames »

Hi,
I know that you are not the originator of this sentiment Steven, or you wouldn't be so involved with this forum. But perhaps it is time to think about the real reason why some feel so threatened by the forum. I mean a reason that has the ring of truth, not some rationalized gobbeldy-gook!
I agree with this, but one thing I have said before is this. I brought this forum to the Guild's attention at the beginning of last year. I spoke to quite a few individuals at Guild HQ, some were in favour, most werent. They all gave their own reasons, the Guild's reasoning is as expressed by me before, there is nothing I can do about that. I for on think the Guild's decison not to get invloved is a wee tad backward, but hey I cannot force them into taking part.

Yes I agree they are missing out on an opportuntiy, yes I agree it doesnt take long to rattle a few sentences off in reply, or make an original posting / subject, but unfortunately I dont think no matter what pressure is put on the Guild as a whole, they simply wont get involved. Thats their democratic perogative. Maybe if someone was to bring this up at one of the Court meetings, it may get a bit further, who knows?
Forget about the management (could it be that they want to control too much?), get some sound court people involved, If they were behind the forum, I'm sure John could set one or two of them up as forum moderators to look out for the interests of the FATG.
This is a good idea, but they would probably have to become invloved as individals, like I have. be fair now, I cannot see the Guild allowing someone to act as spokesman on their behalf without wanting to vett all replies, etc. So somewhat would defeat the object for the Guild not getting involved. Also, maybe I am wrong here, maybe they would like this idea.

Now here is something I dont expect you would ever hear from me! I would prefer the Guild to get invloved, I dont like the idea of them not being invloved, especialy those postings that directly or indirectly invlove them or invlove their standing or credibility. I would prefer them to answer for themselves, and not just hear from individual members, who are not on the Court / Exec / Framers Committees. Due to the Guild's Committee Confidentially clause, talking out of shop is not allowed. (Hey! I and others dont agree with this , but until told otherwise what we going to?)

I would prefer the MD or a dedicated spokesperson to answer directly. I remember someone saying
Why would any organization which supported a forum such as this feel the need for constant monitoring? Would it not be better to stand back and learn while letting the members get on with it?
, this is not what I meant. What I meant was that for the Guild to get invloved someone would have to monitor the postings to see if anything applied to them, like we all do. I dont mean that someone sits and watches forum constantly. We all in some way monitor the forum, how else would we get invloved. I get the feeling that everyone thinks I am all in favour what the Guild do or say, well folks, I am not, but I am in one of thos positions where I can make my feelings known and felt from the inside. What I dont like is the hard nosed destructive critism, like Merlin stated
criticism is constructive and not destructive
.
From personal experience, the Guild are doing an excellent service for the betterment of the industry as a whole. Yes, there is room for improvement, I even think they would agree with that, and like all other industries governing bodies its a work in progress, so for me I am willing to stay a member and try and make it better with constuctive critism and to try in any small way to make it better from the inside, and again brfore I can slated for that statement, I for one am the first to complain if i think they are not doing the job they should be, but I dont expect them to come and hold my hand while I am framing, as ome do.

Steven
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Framing Norah
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Post by Framing Norah »

When I think of the FATG I'm not thinking of a handful of people who sit in a cosy london office.

These are not the people who need get involved in the forum, at the end of the day, what benefit is it to them. Having sait that, I'm sure that they are more than welcome to participate.

But what is upsetting some people here is that the cosy ones have made such a bad judgement about the forum. While, "in-house" it is apparently a topic of debate, in the wider world they refuse to acknowledge it, and even suppressed news of its formation.

Is this because the forum is not in the best interest of the FATG? Or is it because it is not in the best interests of the cosy ones?
FN
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The Future

Post by SquareFrames »

Hi,

FN Said
But what is upsetting some people here is that the cosy ones have made such a bad judgement about the forum. While, "in-house" it is apparently a topic of debate, in the wider world they refuse to acknowledge it, and even suppressed news of its formation.

Is this because the forum is not in the best interest of the FATG? Or is it because it is not in the best interests of the cosy ones
?

My own personal honest to goodness answer....'Whose to say which is right?' No one knows whether its is a topic of debate in the office or not, the last few times I was in the office it wasnt even mentioned, by the staff or anyone else at the meetings.

One thing is sur though, at least I'll get involved in any posting, regarding any subject, and whether its invloves the Guild or not, I dont care! I am sure if someone in the Guild office is watching from time to time, and I step out of line, I am sure I will be told, but I will and those that know me, know that I will to the best of my ability deem to answer any question about the Guild.

This forum for me is an excellent vehicle for learning, finding out what is going on with each other, solving problems that we all from time to time run into, helping the 'newbies' as they like to be called, heck I even enjoy helping those who email or phone me directly. As long as this forum is here and is continuing to grow, as it will given time, and the banter, debate is going from strength to strength, those of us already taking an active role, will continue to be here.

Steven
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Down School of Picture Framing http://www.downschoolofpictureframing.co.uk
Ireland's Only Accredited Training School
GCF Examination Centre
Accredited Valiani Demonstration / Training Centre
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Post by Framing Norah »

Steven, your'e a great ambassador for that organization, I hope that you are appreciated!
FN
sarah
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Post by sarah »

Framing Norah wrote:Steven, your'e a great ambassador for that organization, I hope that you are appreciated!
Maybe a little Ferro Rocher would go down well right now hey Steve :wink: Sorry I thought it was funny - at least in my head - now that I see it written down :? :cry:
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