Comments on Price Check thread

[kev@frames]

interesting to see from the first ten posts from various corners of the british isles that the "starter" price for the cheapest 20x16/50x40 looks pretty consistent - taking into account varying overheads - looks like some lucky people are also selling some very expensive higher end stuff.

Cause for continued optimism in the business, do you think?

Considering there is a recession on, I haven't spoken to any framers (yet) who have even been tempted to drop any prices in an effort to pick up business. In some areas, including this one, a lot of framers are saying they are working to (or past) their usual capacity. In fact in our shop, over the shop counter, it is busier (in volume of jobs and £) than before christmas. (about 30 staff-hours overtime per week).

Hopefully a nice message for people new in the business or people reading this who are thinking about going into framing: Dont be afraid to charge at least the going rate for your work.

[Roboframer]

looks like some lucky people are also selling some very expensive higher end stuff.

But in the original thread you asked for the top of 'the normal range' which would exclude closed corners, gold (etc) leaf and stuff like inlays, carving and other elaborate hand-finishing.

Which could of course all be 'normal' for some but I don't think you were looking for that specialised end of things, otherwise things like washline mounts with gilded bevels could be included, and if I included that, with museum glass, which you also did not ask for, my upper price would have trebled!

Point taken anyway - don't be tempted to drop your prices or afraid to charge the 'going rate' unless of course those that you pay your overheads to are prepared to drop theirs, and/or your staff are prepared to take a cut in pay or work longer hours for no extra pay, which is the same thing.

If you have retail premises there are many ways to drop your prices, but stuff made to order should not fall under the same categories.

Maybe you can fool around with list prices for goods - e.g. you get a discount for quantity or turnover from suppliers - on mouldings, mountboard, glass, whatever. No obligation to pass that discount on to the customer, but in 'hard times' you actually could if you wanted - maybe you do anyway, in which case your bridges are burned in that respect.

[absolute framing]

My top of the range frame price has never been purchased by a client, however the cheveron is on the wall so i priced it.

I suppose a more realistic expensive mouldng off the wall, would come in at €123.00 - that, I have sold.

[framemaker]

My examples for the price check thread are all pre finished, bought in mouldings. No Frinton, Spagl gilded, my gilded, or other hand made are included.

In my selection and price range for pre finished mouldings there are quite a few that come in £100 upwards, that I have used on a number of occasions, and a few of them I (unfortunately) have in stock.
A couple in stock for example:
Wessex G6018 £12.46 a metre
A&T (Euro did it too) 6041.40 £19.08 a metre (have one customer who loves this bright gilded look)
A few Senelar mouldings, etc etc £20plus a metre

With mouldings like this, for a size like 40cm x 50cm I would usually add on some extra wastage and charge for a whole length. And regarding labour, I take more time handing, cutting, and joining a moulding that costs over £10 a metre than one costing a £3 or £4

Sure it is rare that a customer goes for these but it does happen, but its better to have a high priced sample and never use it.
I do find that when a customer compares a hand made gilded frame next to a high cost pre finished, the hand made one can be less money and looks better so they go for that.

[kev@frames]

[quote="Roboframer ... in the original thread you asked for the top of 'the normal range' which would exclude closed corners, gold (etc) leaf and stuff like inlays, carving and other elaborate hand-finishing.
[/quote]

I meant to convey the idea of "stuff you normally sell", so I guess if someone specialises in closed corners, hand gilding or specialised techniques then thats fine, we want to hear from everyone I Might have phrased it a bit off, hopefully people will get the gist.

Most of our "high end" are nowhere near this category of work, mostly comprising some of the wide enrique lopez mouldings.

I reckon our average frame in that size is pretty close to the lower end of the price guide rather than the top. Say £45-£50. And that will probably be a 2" wide limes ash or oak, or a 3" wide flat obeche limed or painted white (as is the popular local style still).

Although we have put up prices substantially in the past three years, and are getting towards being (if not actually) the "most expensive" in Town, I think there are still plenty of customers who are more than happy with the price structure we have.

[markw]

I qualified my expensive price as an Ashworth & Thompson hand finished moulding - its one I sell and have done so well above the size defined - so its in my range.

[Nigel Nobody]

I don't understand the price comparison of grapefruit with bananas! That's what non-thinking customers do!

In order for a survey to have value, I would have thought a comparison would need to be done using very specific products, sizes and specific cost of moulding used.

Convince me I'm wrong, please. I want to understand!

[framejunkie]

I'll second what Ormond says.
I haven't posted on the pricing thread because i don't see what i charge as being relevant

Its says "10 or 15 minute job". No such thing in my workshop - almost all frames start as bare timber, get joined then power sanded then hand sanded. Even for a small flat-faced frame that's 15 minutes already.

Also i only have conservation grade mountboard(which admittedly doesn't neccessarily add greatly to the price), and my basic glass is GM water-white, so I'm probably paying 4 times what some others are for their cheapest glass.

The figures people are giving probably say more about the socio-economic make-up of their client base than anything else.

[kev@frames]

Perhaps it would be a good idea if we all quoted on two precise mouldings, we would then get a better comparison.

Jon

@ jon, ormond, framejunkie: - the idea is just to simulate a typical customer presenting something typical at the counter for your usual type of basic frame and asking "how much to frame this", where the average jobbing framer might answer the customers question with "starting at £xyz up to £xyz". Nothing much more than that.
we are not going to find two framers. let alone a decent number who use the identical bottom end and identical top end moulding (I guess) so if we get into precise materials and exact mouldings, most of us will be drifting into hypothetical jobs that we wouldn't be pricing for anyway. That wasn't really what the post was about.

The value, if any, of the post was in the answers people give, so we can all see roughly how we compare to the "going rate" for a basic job.

Hence I'm awarding Merlin a medal the size of a frying pan for his clear concice answer, which precicely answered the question

[Merlin]

I would just like to say a big Thank you to my supportive family and friends for helping me to achieve this Life Time award of a frying pan......... Thanks Kev

I see where you were coming from by asking for a bottom end frame and a top end frame. No specs.

If you had stated ref numbers then (maybe) the number of responses would have been far less.
I know you have moulding types/glass types/mountboard types etc that we do not use and vice versa.

[jon buck]

Yep see where you are coming from.

Jon

[Nigel Nobody]

@ jon, ormond, framejunkie: - the idea is just to simulate a typical customer presenting something typical at the counter for your usual type of basic frame and asking "how much to frame this", where the average jobbing framer might answer the customers question with "starting at £xyz up to £xyz". Nothing much more than that.

Obviously I work a little differently because I don't give customers 'ball park' numbers like that! I don't give customers any prices unless they have the item with them.

we are not going to find two framers. let alone a decent number who use the identical bottom end and identical top end moulding (I guess) so if we get into precise materials and exact mouldings, most of us will be drifting into hypothetical jobs that we wouldn't be pricing for anyway. That wasn't really what the post was about.

A survey doesn't have to use identical mouldings, just based on any mouldings that cost the same! I guess in this case this wasn't important to you, but for me there is no value in this type of survey, based on how I work.

[markw]

Not sure that a survey that is mainly completed by UK framers would have a lot of relevance to framers in other parts of the world - not that they are unwelcome to participate. The Euro exchange rate causes enough confusion - by the time you take into account the possible variations in material cost then you have lost any comparative analysis.

If you wanted to be totally accurate and use the price comparison to judge others markup then you would have to specify the cost of each item involved. The comparison that has been made on the thread is useful in that it shows the bottom end price is roughly comparable between the framers who participated and that some framers offer fairly expensive top end mouldings.

I doubt you will ever get totally useful feedback on prices without making the results anonymous. if that were possible here then I would suggest that the moulding options were set at a price. Figures returned were broken down into cost of frame - glass - mount - back. we could then judge a reliable figure for those elements within our own personal pricing systems.

[kev@frames]

Im bewildered which part of the polite note in the OP on that thread saying no comments required was interpereted as "lets hijack the thread and twitter about mars bars, coffee, newspapers and crisps".

Come on guys, its was a "Business Matters" thread. If you are not interested in it, there is always the After Hours. Why clutter it up with off topic banter and mess up the thread for those who took the time to RTFM and participate in the thread in the spirit which was intended, particularly when a separate thread (this one) had been created specifically to comment upon the price check thread.

It might be indicative of why many people who used to post regularly on the forum no longer post so much, if at all. I'll be joining their ranks.

[framejunkie]

Kev,
The mars bar/coffee/etc part of the thread came about because one of our friends in the Republic wanted to compare actual cost-of-living based prices to better compare Sterling and Euro prices. That it got a bit banter-led is regrettable but inevitable, but is it really that big a deal?

RTFM

I googled RTFM, as i've never come across it, and all i came up with was 'read the f..... manual'. Please explain what you mean by this.

It might be indicative of why many people who used to post regularly on the forum no longer post so much, if at all.

Indeed it might be.
Or it could be because of all the grumpy pointless ranting that goes on here. Maybe you should start a thread about it - conduct some research for the benefit of us all.

Be sure to have a nice Sunday Kev. Sounds like you could do with a day off

[MITREMAN]

Fellow Framers,
This is a interesting subject for all I think?
To get a true figure of peoples mark ups around the country I think it would be a good idea to fix the cost of a 16x20 Frame, glass, back, mount, tape and fixings nothing fancy just basic.

Lets say a moulding cost at £1.50 a foot (any moulding)
Simple print fitted (customers)
Glass (plain 2mm float glass)
single mount (Conservation)
Back (mdf of other, but must be the same unit cost)
Tape (gum or sticky brown)
Fittings (2 double d-rings and wire)

Once we agree a relistic cost per item we can then come up with a unit cost.

Ok we gain a little on who we buy from but if we base it on normal prices not bulk discount (which is our extra profit)

Once we haved agreed a relistic unit cost, then we can see what markup/labour/overheads are added and get a true picture of cost around the area.


I hope this will help us get a true picture

Best wishes
MITREMAN

[Merlin]

It might be indicative of why many people who used to post regularly on the forum no longer post so much, if at all.

Indeed it might be.
Or it could be because of all the grumpy pointless ranting that goes on here.
Be sure to have a nice Sunday Kev. Sounds like you could do with a day off

Simon, was that last comment necessary ?
You have already stated that you haven't posted on the pricing thread because you don't see what you charge as being relevant. So why do you find it relevant to comment when the author of that thread questioned the hijacking and off topic banter.

This is a forum for ALL framers, from newbies to very experienced framers.
Lets be constructive not destructive.

[framejunkie]

Sorry people. Kind of threw the toys out of the pram on Saturday. A bad day but i shan't bore you all with the details

I'm off to sit on the naughty step