woody colouring type question

[circles_of_confusion]

After reading some of the threads here I have noticed that one or two of them speak of staining the wood moulding prior to cutting and assembling the frame. Intuitively, I would have made the frame first and then stained it, so I am wondering what is the consequence of doing that way?
Also, what is the difference between wood stain and wood dye, as I have never used either yet? I did promise everyone on my previous thread that stupid questions would be forthcoming, but thanks for any help, much appreciated.

[Roboframer]

Finishing after joining can be good, depending on what sort of finish you want - if you are putting a coat of gesso or something, before gilding, etc - then that gives a very nice seamless (closed corner) finish.

But if you just slap a woodstain on after joining it will seep in to and darken/emphasise the mitres and if it's a painted finish then you have to worry about brushstrokes going the wrong way at the corners - you'd need to do some masking.

It's quicker to rub a rag over a length than a square thing.

Woodstain - I think, is usually spirit based and comes in wood tones - and wood dye is (I think) water based and come sin colours other than wood tones - but 'water based wood stain' sounds OK too - so I'm not 100% on that one.

[circles_of_confusion]

Thank you Roboframer, with regards the staining before assembly, it's pretty obvious once you explained it, so thank you.
The reason I am asking about the dye v stain is that I have been looking at this site
http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/cat ... stains.htm
for supplying the stain, and then I noticed they also mention dyes. Looking at the dye section the colours seem to be much deeper than the stains so maybe a stain is a diluted dye, sort of..... As I said I've never used either but I will no doubt find out when I attack some wood when I've ordered some. The site seems to be pretty helpful with bits of advice etc and the prices don't seem that bad, so hopefully someone else may find some use from it.
Once again Roboframer, thank you.....

[Spit]

For myself, I dye/stain assembled frames for economy - I can't have odd bits of different coloured offcuts hanging around, whereas I can dye/stain mismatching (tonewise) bits of natural ash a dark colour to make a frame.

Yes, there are disadvantages - glue overspill at the mitres can show up badly on anything but the darkest colours, but I tend to rub well with a damp cloth beforehand, which lessens the effect. If you're using spirit stains and are quick, when you see it happening you can soak a cloth in meths and remove the excess glue, then continue staining - you can't do that with other types.

[Roboframer]

I think the opposite way.

I buy finished wood mouldings in length - not chop, and I get offcuts left over. I don't have to factor anything in to my pricing bar wastage on finished mouldings and I factor the same wastage in to my hand finished stuff - plus it's marked up, once finished, by over x2 of the unfinished list price, which i didn't pay anyway.

If I hand finished frames instead of lengths - I'd have to factor in the things you describe - more, maybe not much more, but still more, to do.

And just like offcuts from finished mouldings - offcuts from hand finished moldings can still be used, or, if not large enough - thrown out.

I find it more economical, in the long run, to finish mouldings in batches - if I buy 100 ft of - say - Simons Ash 8 - it's cost me not much more than £50, maybe less. I'll finish the lot in one go if I can - in 5 different ways, which is only 2 lengths per stain/finish anyway.

Usually just one frame to order will more than cover the cost of the whole 100 ft.

[WelshFramer]

sin colours

Does your wife know about those?

[Jonny2morsos]

Here is the waste from my last hand finished job:

Waste.jpg (33.77 KiB) Viewed 17067 times

Under 2"!!

I calculate the amount required using my pricing programme (Wessex Premier) stain the right amount and then cut & join.

If I am doing a plain painted finish then I usually cut the four lengths a little long and trim to size before joining as I find it easier to handle than trying to paint a long length. If the painted finish is textured then I make up the frame first and then paint as this ensures the corners look right.

John.

[Not your average framer]

But if you just slap a woodstain on after joining it will seep in to and darken/emphasise the mitres and if it's a painted finish then you have to worry about brushstrokes going the wrong way at the corners - you'd need to do some masking.

Hi John,

Yes that's all true, but the more creative finishes force us to rethink our usual ideas. From time to time, I have been known to recreate some of those old fashioned finishes which I've seen in some of those really old moulding catalogues.

The particular finish I have in mind uses a mixture of different wood stain colours in a semi-random way on an ash moulding together with some liming and patinating waxes. The problem of course is how to get the difference mixture of colours to match across the mitres, without getting the darker area either side of the mitres.

Well, it's easy once you know how! You make each length needed for the frame about 4mm too long and then join the frame without any glue with just one shallow wedge in each mitre. After staining you break the frame apart and trim each end of each length of moulding removing 2mm each end to finish to size. When completed and the top layers of the finish are added, you get a very nice result.

I've never made any display samples of this otherwise there would be a photo. I expect a few forum members will soon be thinking how this method can be adapted to all sorts of good individual ideas. I have a few of my own fancy twists on this method. Those who know about chemistry, chemical reactions and their relevence to wood finishing will probably soon guess what I'm talking about.

[Roboframer]

......make each length needed for the frame about 4mm too long and then join the frame without any glue with just one shallow wedge in each mitre. After staining you break the frame apart and trim each end of each length of moulding removing 2mm each end to finish to size. When completed and the top layers of the finish are added, you get a very nice result.

Too much grief for me I'm afraid - as I said, the only time I'd finish after joining would be to create a 'seamless' finish and that's above and beyond a basic wash and go, which I think is what we're talking here.

I mean, you can buy finished mouldings in basic woodstains - no need to do all that trimming with those, so why go to that trouble with your own? Make a frame, stain it, break it apart, trim it, make another frame - sod that for a game of soldiers, as they say.

All I want to do is create those same basic finishes you can buy, but pay less than half the cost - and not create something, that with all the extra work, would mean I may as well have bought the damned thing finished in the first place.

I also like finishing whole lengths - and I mean several lengths at a time, because that means that if I screw up and cut a length TOO short - (it happens) it's no big deal - just like it's not with mouldings bought already finished.

I know we're 'Framers' but for me the actual frame itself needs to be 'Wham-bam, thank-you-ma'am' - no-one actually sees the stuff I'm most proud of, usually!

[circles_of_confusion]

Thank you very much everyone, it is very interesting to see the varying work methods that are employed. The whole process is much clearer now.
Still not sure what the pros and cons are for oil or water based dye and stains. I know that water based stain can raise the grain on softer wood but as I am using ash I'm not sure that will be a problem. That being the case what is the drawback from using oil and eliminating the the possibility entirely?

The company I linked to earlier in this thread seem to have a good selection of stains and dyes although I am still not entirely sure if my assumption that dyes are a much higher concentrate than a stain. Would a dye obliterate the grain whereas a stain would still allow it to show through? I have noticed that the dyes are bright and vibrant colours whilst the stains tend to be more natural looking colours.
Again thank you everyone for your help with this so far.

[prospero]

On softer woods like Obeche, it's a good idea to wet the wood first and then let it dry. Any patches of swollen grain can then be sanded smooth prior to colouring.

[Not your average framer]

Hi C of C,

As you may have already realised, you are getting different answers and different ways of doing things from different members of this forum. Well, the truth is that none of us are wrong, but we each have found that which works for us.

Some of us want something which is cheap, quick and easy to do, (as John says "Wham, bang, Thank you mam"), some of us want to produce some rather exclusive "designer" finishes and between these two extremes, each of us will fit in there somewhere that works for us.

At the moment, you won't neccessarily know where you want to be, so I have a couple of suggestions:

1. Be ready to experiment, learn and develop your own direction which suits you.

2. Look around for a secondhand copy of "The complete manual of wood finishing" by Frederick Oughton. It may seem a little out of date, but it's the best book I know for this subject.

Do not buy the so called updated edition which is by Frederick Oughton + some other guy. It did not need changing and probably the only reason the other guy was able to do this, was that Frederick Oughton was already dead and could not object. Look for the original, you'll find one somewhere! It may be cheaper too!

[circles_of_confusion]

Thank you NYAF, I have just ordered the book from Amazon books for £3.98 +p&p.
It's nice to have been recommended a manual rather than blindly looking through loads of different publications. The one I've ordered was by by Frederick Oughton only.

I want to be able to turn out the best frames that I possibly can. I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to that sort of thing and so I will want to do it right.
At the moment I need to develop some better skill and know how but I am confident that I will be able to achieve a level that I will be happy with eventually.
I do not want to get into competition with any of my local framers as I only want to frame my own work for my own customers. It will have to be at a very high standard which I haven't achieved yet....Again thank you for your help.

[Not your average framer]

Hi C of C,

I hope you will like the book. You won't need to, (or want to), do everything according to the book, but the guy was clearly a top expert of his day in the traditional way of doing things.

I expect that you will follow the book's principles of how to do things, but not bother to make your own stains and polishes, etc. There's all sorts of recipes for stains, varnishes, lacquers and the like, which can be used if you are that way inclined and instructions for making your own french polish (Shellac).

I can't be bothered with buying the ingredients to make anything which I can buy ready made straight off the shelf, unless there is a good reason why I should. However, you will still learn a lot from reading about these things.

There's a lot to know about using different finishing media and paints in combination for obtaining desired effects. A lot of this background info will help you as you start to get into hand finishing.

Don't be affaid to do your own thing. If it's your own speciality and it's different to what others are offering in ways which customers like, it should be good for business. If they like it and can't get it elsewhere, it puts you into a different league compared to your competitors.

I hope you will enjoy learning some new tricks!

[Roboframer]

I do not want to get into competition with any of my local framers as I only want to frame my own work for my own customers. It will have to be at a very high standard which I haven't achieved yet.

So, when you do achieve that standard and one of your own customers, or maybe 5 people that one/some of your own customers have recommended you to ..... comes in with a shedload of their own stuff to frame ...... because they prefer what you do over your competition ...... warraya gonna do?

[circles_of_confusion]

There's a lot to know about using different finishing media and paints in combination for obtaining desired effects. A lot of this background info will help you as you start to get into hand finishing.

Thank you NYAF, I am looking forward to receiving it and I will be sure to report back here when I've had a look at it. Of course I don't expect to learn it all just from one book but at least it is another step along the way.

............because they prefer what you do over your competition ...... warraya gonna do?

Well, I wouldn't have enough time in the day to take on a full time framing service on top of my other work commitements. I would have to turn it away. However, I don't really believe that I'd be so good that it would ever be a regualar problem.
At my present work rate (which is slow to say the least) I'd put myself out of business attempting it.

[framemaker]

Hi Circles

I use both spirit and water based stains, I don't really think there is that much difference between wood stain or wood dye regarding the concentration. You can get very concentrated dye, which is intended to be diluted but this would be marketed as such and is more for specialist wood finishers and comes in the brighter colours not wood tones. I think it would be better to buy a ready mixed such as Liberon, Manns, or Chestnut stain. rather than mixing your own, to begin with at least.

I usually join the frame before applying the stain. This is mainly because I sand the frame alot, especially at the corners to get a really good, seamless finish. This is done with every barewood frame I make but I find its needed most on hardwoods like oak and ash. You can't do this if you have already stained the moulding. Yes it is easier to stain then cut and join but with a little practice it is possible to stain the frame when joined.

I find the spirit stain very easy to use, it soaks in very quickly, penetrates the wood well and covers evenly. Water based stains do not soak into the grain in quite the same way and often I will apply it and then wipe of the excess with a paper towel. Some woods and profiles have machining marks which need to be sanded out, because when stained and waxed these can be quite visible.

[circles_of_confusion]

Thank you Framemaker, That has answered some more of my questions. I think I'll go for the spirit based stains. It will remove the problem of raising the grain and I didn't realise that the spirit based stain pentrated deeper into the wood either, so sanding down will be something else to keep an eye on, as you said.
Thanks again....

[Chris10b]

I think its a case of suck it and see !
I've tried three ways of doing it now - finish the length of moulding before cutting, finish the completed frame and for my latest effort I've cut the moulding to length and then finished it. All three have turned out well, so just have a play and see how you get on.

[iantheframer]

I usually join the frame before applying the stain. Yes it is easier to stain then cut and join but with a little practice it is possible to stain the frame when joined.

Stining when joined is fairly straightforward, but what about sealing? waxing is ok, but polishing or varnishing are problematic,(unless you spray of course)