Pinning Awkward Shaped Mouldings

[Bagel Framer]

Hi all and I apologise if my question has been raised before - I did look but I could see anything, maybe it was my search criteria.

Anyway - I'm in the home strait of making my own chevrons (I clearly need to get out more) and when underpinning them quite a few of them have split open along the joint line (no doubt largely due to the fact that it's a chevron and not a complete frame that's been in a clamp for a while). I've got round this, but some of the mouldings have physically split in half (not on the joint line and using Lion's M120-46 as an example).

I was wondering how you all (and especially those of you that have a CS88 as I do) tackle such an awkward profile. Again using M120-46, in theory one wedge in the deeper part of the moulding would work, it's when you move to the back of the moulding. There you have approximately 7mm of material depth but the profile slopes significantly - that's where I get the splittage.

I know the CS88 comes with the different inserts for the part that impacts the moulding, but even the soft on doesn't seem to be very flexible.

One answer would be to use another piece of the moulding and simply lay it on top - this way you'd get a flatter impact area in theory.

Has anyone else got any thoughts or comments on this?

Thanks,

Sean

[prospero]

You've answered your own question at the end Sean. On reverse mouldings a neat trick is to make a chrevron of the same moulding (hopfully out of scraps) with the rebate facing out. It then just fits on top of the join and all the pressure is spread nicely.

[Bill Henry]

Are you talking about a profile similar to this



If so what we have done to help join these “swan” and “cove” moulding is construct a series of dowels and “shims” joined at a right angle. If the hold down of the underpinner cannot be placed directly above where we wish to place the V-nail, we slip in a dowel of the appropriate size which fills in the space and gives the hold down something to ‘push’ against.



In the case of the above moulding and others with similar profiles, a small square of mount board between the vise clamp and the moulding will keep the dowels from slipping when pressure is exerted against the dowel.

[Nigel Nobody]

Sean,
It would be very helpful if you posted a photo of the problem and one showing the profile of the moulding in question.

It is vital to select the location of the vee nails in the right places for each moulding!

[Not your average framer]

A golden rule which I was taught by the gallery where I was trained is this:

Always put the first wedge (or V-nail) into the thickest part of the moulding. (Sometimes following this rule solves the problem, without having to do anything else!)

There are some mouldings don't join well on underpinners which don't have a rebate clamp.

Also if I've got any left, I had one moulding which needed a wooden spacer inside the rebate while joining because the highest point on the moulding was directly above the empty space inside the rebate. This caused the moulding to tip to one side and open the mitre, when the clamp came down.

Underpinning with a band clamp around the frame can be helpful at times.

There are some desparate measures which can help, such as plasticine roughly shaped by hand, followed by wrapping in cling film and then wrapped with a scrap bit of the brushed nylon velcro cloth. I have been known to do this with some of my massive stacked and hand finished creations which are so high, that I can't fit the normal pressure pad and holder if I am to get the moulding into place on the underpinner.

[iantheframer]

I find this very useful.

http://www.lionpic.co.uk/Catalog/Produc ... search=316

[Bagel Framer]

Thanks for all your suggestions guys - I'm hoping to get to Lion soon so will hunt out item "316".

Ormond, the moulding was the one you showed in the picture - the problem I had was as I had nothing to bridge the gap between hammer and moulding, it was splitting in half. Now I'm armed with much more ideas it shouldn't be a problem any more.

Sean

[Nigel Nobody]

Sean,
I didn't post a moulding, but if you meant the one that Bill posted, I would place two 15mm vee nails in the deepest part of the moulding where the red lines are in this image.

That way, the pressure of the top clamp is over the highest part of the moulding and the vee nails are directly under the clamp.

M121.jpg (27.69 KiB) Viewed 7932 times

[Bagel Framer]

Sorry, yes the moulding Bill posted - I've been gluing my chevrons and the glue's affected my brain!

I agree that the wedges should go where you say - not much to be gained by putting a 3mm wedge in the thin portion other than more stress..!

Sean

[Nigel Nobody]

Sean,
If you were joining that type of moulding the way I posted, and the joint was "splitting" (I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by that because "splitting" usually refers to a crack in wood, running along the grain.) then the only conclusion I can come to is that the cut surface of the joint is not at 90 degrees to the base of the moulding. If the angle is less than 90 degrees, then the top will open when you vee nail it together.

[Bagel Framer]

I was attempting to make a chevron of that moulding rather than a frame - I had put two v nails in where you suggested, but was trying to put a smaller one in the thin portion of the moulding, that's when it split along the grain (even though it's plastic).

I was effectively putting too much pressure on with the hammer on my CS88.

[Uncle Sumo]

Ever tried placing a juggling ball on top of moulding?
(Cue for punchline.)

[Not your average framer]

I was attempting to make a chevron of that moulding rather than a frame - I had put two v nails in where you suggested, but was trying to put a smaller one in the thin portion of the moulding, that's when it split along the grain (even though it's plastic).

Ah! Now it all makes sense! No doubt you would not be bothering about putting in the smaller wedge at all, except for the fact that you are trying to make a display chevron and feel that something extra is required to strengthen the mitre.

I've got some thoughts for you to consider:

As it's a plastic moulding from Lion. I wonder if they make up chevrons for this moulding, if so maybe you can get one made up from them. Otherwise if they make up chevrons for this moulding, perhaps they know the best way to do this. They also have a member of staff who is their framing advisor. I think you will find them very helpful, if you ask the question.

Are you using a suitable adhesive to join the corners? If so maybe you don't need the added small wedge in the thinner part of the moulding. If you are not using any adhesive in the mitre joint, then you probably need to start using an adhesive to get a stronger joint.

If you still feel the need to pin the thinner section of the moulding together, perhaps it could be stapled from behind instead. This would help secure things, but as it only penetrates with two thin legs then the disruption of the internal structure of the plastic core material would limited to the size of the two staple legs.

[Nigel Nobody]

Sean,
If it's a plastic moulding and you join it first with superglue then just put vee nails where I indicated in the picture, you shouldn't have a problem.
Placing a vee nail in plastic or wood in the thin part is neither necessary or practical and will only give you trouble. Every moulding needs to be vee nailed in appropriate locations which will reinforce the joint, but not weaken it.

[Bagel Framer]

All my samples come from Lion and Wessex and as space is a premium I don't have chevrons on show. Initially I displayed the sample lengths as they come from both suppliers on some brushed nylon cloth boards, but decided that looked amateurish so I've embarked on making chevrons of them. Considering I've got 400+ samples it's been quite arduous, but at the same time rewarding as now they're on the boards they look SO much better.

Ok, I could have applied to Lion for chevrons but I've made my own smaller version and have made chevrons that are 115mm by 115mm.

I've also used the staple gun on the back to act as a v nail, this also holds the velcro on.

Call me mad if you like but they do look good....

[Bagel Framer]

nyaf - yes, I've been using mitre mate to glue the chevrons. I just thought I'd try a small wedge in the minerva for completeness, but I agree it was so much not needed...!

[Nigel Nobody]

Considering I've got 400+ samples it's been quite arduous, but at the same time rewarding as now they're on the boards they look SO much better.

Ok, I could have applied to Lion for chevrons but I've made my own smaller version and have made chevrons that are 115mm by 115mm.

Sean,
Wow....400 samples, why???
Why do you think Lion supplies larger samples? You might have to supply your customers with magnifying glasses to see those chevrons?

IMHO , you would be better off with less than 100 samples and make chevrons that are large enough for customers to be able to see more moulding. I have customers who can't visualize properly with my samples that are twice that size. I even get full lengths out for some people.

I suggest it might be a good idea to visit some framing shops that are well established and check out what they are doing and copy some of their ideas!

[Not your average framer]

I've made my own smaller version and have made chevrons that are 115mm by 115mm.

Sorry Sean,

Ormond is correct, chevrons as small that are not going to help your sales, or enable your custmer to judge the correct proportions for the mount relative to the subject and the moulding.

Have you ever tried to convince a custoer that he needs much larger mount borders when the moulding chevron looks so small?

Larger mount borders will look "over the top" when you have not got enough moulding to visually balance with the mount chevrons. Guess how things will look when the customer collects the job and realises that the mount margins are too small!

[Bagel Framer]

Guys,

I'm a part time framer and all my customers to date have been happy looking at the single length samples I've shown them, ie. as they come from Lion. I've just chosen to chevron them all as it would be unfair (IMHO) to re-apply to Ian at Lion for 400+ chevrons.

I had a guy and his daughter come round last night and choose a Lion Moulding (one of my new chevrons) and they weren't fazed by it. Most of my customers are pretty clueless anyway.

Given the fact that it's part time and the orders/enquiries are few and far between then I'll take a flyer that the dinky chevrons will be fine - I have however drawn the line at L1171 for instance as that's a thick moulding and would look daft cut down.

I see what you're saying though - if I was a full time framer I would have tackled it completely differently from the start.

Sean

[Nigel Nobody]

Sean,
You certainly have a different way of looking at things.

You're a part time framer, yet you have 400 mouldings? I've been doing it for 24 years full time and I have about that many samples and probably sell 50 of those regularly and around another 100 occasionally. The rest are a waste of space!

I don't understand the relationship between being a part time framer and having chevrons radically different to every other framer on the planet? I don't understand the "Oh, I'm only part time, so I'm going to do it My Way" philosophy!

if I was a full time framer I would have tackled it completely differently from the start.

????????????????

Showing customer short lengths of moulding is not the same as showing a corner/chevron. Many people have great difficulty visualising how the finished frame will look when they see chevrons, but this would be even more difficult when they only see a straight piece of moulding. The difference between a chevron and a straight piece of moulding is dramatic!

One of the risks you run is that your customer may see your framing business as 'dinky' and not serious. Some may be turned off completely, because they want a serious and knowledgeable framer, but then, some may be attracted to you because they may assume you are 'cheap'.

But, if it works for you then go for it!