Glass, plastic?

[markw]

At a recent Cotswold Branch FATG meeting a point was raised as to our responsibility as framers to advise the use of Acrylic glass when work is going into a public place. Public place - School - Hospital etc. The comment was made that we should advise the use of acrylic even when we think that it will go into a domestic environment where children could get access to the work - I suppose the most straight forward meaning of this would be a child’s bedroom.

I have to say this made me think - I don’t really have a policy in place to evaluate the advice I give unless I know that the frame is going to be in an exceptionally vulnerable place - or that it was a very large piece of work and glass could present a problem by its sheer weight.

I will now advise customers to use acrylic with more thought of the positioning of the frame - but, what a can of worms! Who has the responsibility of care here - If a local doctors comes in for a certificate frame and I sell him a bog standard black hockey A4 frame that he then hangs said frame in his surgery. Whose fault is it if little Johnny comes along and knocks the frame off the wall causing mayhem and injury to others in the surgery?

I suppose it could be the Doctors - he has responsibility for specifying a frame that has no glass that could be accidentally broken. Johnnie’s mother could be accused of being irresponsible in her care - allowing her child to run wild. Is it the framer who should have said - I notice this is a medical certificate - will it hang in a public place where you have small children intent upon physical harm with a shard of very sharp 2 mm glass.

Should I ask customers if they have small children running amok in their house, and if so should I demand that they use acrylic - or add a long clause to my order form stating that the parents had been informed of the risk and it was their choice to ignore me - gosh! that could be a long form.

We were told that several framers had been prosecuted, but I’ve not seen any news of this and will therefore take with a large dose of doubt, its factual basis. It does though make you think!

[Framing Norah]

What!

You would actually contemplate putting glass (or acrylic) into a picture frame!

Are you mad!

What if the low evening sun were to catch its reflective surface and startle a passing road user? Would you really be prepared to take responsibility for the carnage that might ensue?

I expect that you are also one of those callous people who hates innocent little children so much that they make their frames out of a hard material, probably with little or no fire retardant properties, with sharp 90 degree corners that could have an eye out, quick as wink.

[ImagesLen]

I do a lot of exhibitions in Schools and can only use acrylic. I have to carry 5m public liability insurance even with this. Glass is banned in all primary schools in my area. Parents welcome the use as they are always concerned when they are viewing the exhibition with their children.

[Dermot]

You have a duty of care that what you sell is appropriate for it’s intended use…and possible location of use…....... anyone who has even taken basic safety training for business would be aware of this…..

Some of the clients I had would not allow glass in public access areas….

Some had concerns about using in any area acrylic and the fumes caused in the event of fire …..glass also causes some safety experts concern should there be a fire and the damage it may do if people have to crawl along the floor to escape a fire situation…..

[markw]

Dermot
Interesting reply, but one that glibly applies vague guides to an end use that’s not intended by any framer. When I make a frame I make it on the basis that the customer is going to secure the frame to a wall in his house or office. I wouldn’t imagine that he is then going to set fire to the place and blame me for cuts on hand and knees because he had to crawl over broken glass. You could just as easily comment that the temperature required to break glass would melt acrylic and that your unfortunate customer might end up with molten acrylic burns.

So where has my basic safety training got me - other than confused.

I can go into Boots and buy a large clip frame - almost guaranteed to break with the most devastatingly severe consequences - I stopped selling those years ago when I heard a report on the radio about some chap who managed to chop his nose off after knocking one off the wall - basic safety assessment I would say.

I have reframed a fair number of fire damaged pictures where the glass, whilst cracked has stayed in place - with blackened charred frames and glass its often surprising that anything can be retrieved, but often is.

So back to my duty of care - I make frames for customers to hang securely. If a customer comes in and says "I want a frame that can be bashed around by my pyromaniac kids" I would make him a different frame.


The perfect duty of care frame would have to be made of a non toxic inflammable material with glass that wouldn’t shatter firmly bolted to a reinforced wall. This basic safety training is not looking quite so basic now, is it?

[Dermot]

Dermot
Interesting reply, but one that glibly applies vague guides to an end use that’s not intended by any framer.

Mark

This is not about the perfect frame it is about the intended use…..or at least that what safety is about….

If you are satisfied that you are producing a product that is suitable for the intended use and are satisfied that you understand the safety implications of what you are doing there should be no problem…..I’m presuming here that you have undertaking some safety training with respects to how you run your business….

Also I’m just relaying what I have learned over the years with respect to safety from some training I have taken and from talking to various facilities managers for various industrial, commercial, educational, leisure etc. etc. etc……premises

Yes we could be glib and put our hands up in the air and say this is stupid…….but try telling that to all those killed or injured in the work place every year through shoddy approaches to safety…..


Oh.....BTW been glib is not a strong piont with me.....

[markw]

Dermot
No framer would deliberatly sell a frame thinking that it endangered the customer. It has to be the customer who knows the end use, to define the parameters - this frame should be suitable for xx. If we accept an open ended end user liability then we are in for a thrashing.

We supply frames that are safe and suitable for the purpose intended - to hang on a wall and display the media within. I dont sell frames with any other purpose in mind.

Glib - its easy to spout words such as duty of care - the reality is that we dont have a definition. Its something that our trade body should assess and I would have thought that its understanding should be part of the GCF test. trouble is that when you define parameters you then have to work to them.

[Dermot]

Mark

You are running your business the duty of care lies with you not some trade association……

A very simple approach to gaining knowledge on this subject would be to talk to the local safety (HSE) and the local fires safety officer……

This is not rocket science it is about using a bit of common sense …….

I find it quite amusing some times that on one hand people want to be in business for themselves bit when it comes to some of the duties of owning a business they just want to pass that duty to others….

I have no tolerance for business owners who take lightly safety……the implications are to grave to even think about ii and…..what can happen……and what has happened…..there were over 150 young teenagers killed in a fire in Dublin many years ago……why!!!!!.......because a stupid business owner felt it was not his responsibility to take safety seriously ……….or to do some simple checks as to what his responsibility was……with respect to safety….

Safety is not about talking the talk it is about walking the walk……

[More So]

Spoken like someone with a vested interest in the business of health and safety.

In my experience the only people given to hyperbole in this area are wanting to flog us something.

For goodness sake, do we not allow our customers to take any responsibility for their own actions?

Our society is hardly improved when we encourage this sort of nanny-ism. Nothing is ever our fault. If we are injured - no matter how, someone else is to blame, go ahead and sue them!

When Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism
is the last refuge of a scoundrel, it was only because back in 1775 the term "health and safety" had not been invented.

[Dermot]

I’m not trying to flog anything but a respect for safety……

And yes I do have an interest in health and safety matters…….most of my working life other than the years engaged framing were spent in safety in some shape or other……and the level of disrespect for this issue by some business people goes beyond belief ……..bottom line is that safety is about peoples life’s and health…

I’m not hear to debate how I can avoid my responsibilities ……………..I’m only here to try and improve how I can live up to my responsibilities as a business person….

One thing I do know is that pleading ignorance in court if you end up with a health and safety issue is not a defense…..

I repeat I do not want to engage in a debate that is about avoiding my responsibilities ……

Even to question my motivations on safety matters shows a scant disregard for the subject…..shame on you…..

[More So]

Even to question my motivations on safety matters shows a scant disregard for the subject…..shame on you…..

Didn't mean to touch a nerve there Dermot.

When I said "In my experience...", on reflection it looked like I was lumping you in with everyone else that I have ever met with a similar message.

I'm sure that you are the exception.

After all, I'm sure that Johnson was not implying that all patriots were also scoundrels.

[JFeig]

when we open our shops, in a commercial setting or from home we are assumed to be the "Experts". We should know better than the client.

On the assumption that we know there a framed job is going to hang, it is our responsibility for the safety of those who view the framed job and to those who are close by.

On our side of the pond, "ignorance of the lawis no excuse". I think it would be the same over in the UK and Ireland.

Jerry

[sarah]

What a load of nonsense!!!

The world has gone bonkers with regard to blaming everyone else for what is essentially their fault!

Oh I'm so sorry did that bullet kill you I do apologise, I blame the man who sold me it, he didn't tell me that putting it in a gun and pulling the trigger would have this affect!!

It's about time that people stopped crying about things being other folks fault and took responsibility for their own actions.

Being aware of safety and having a duty of care for those within your premises is one thing but to quiz people on the positioning of their art and who is llikely to be veiwing the piece is tosh!

The world is mad - where has common sense gone!!

[mick11]

You have a duty of care that what you sell is appropriate for it’s intended use…and possible location of use.

And this is it in a nutshell.

I also think some of the other replies are not "glib" but show how stupid this can become if taken to the extreme.

[Dermot]

[quote="More So"][quote]
When I said "In my experience...", on reflection it looked like I was lumping you in with everyone else that I have ever met with a similar message.

[quote]

Well you can’t have meet many health and safety people if that’s the view you have formed….

Sounds to me that you need to broaden your remit on the subject…

And I would truly like to believe that we have moved on from attitudes that held for 1775…..if we have not it would be a very sad world…..tough then again there are always those who cannot progress

[Framing Norah]

Dermot,

Just to clarify, outside of the forum, do you have anything to gain commercially from making people aware of health and safety issues?

[Dermot]

Dermot,

Just to clarify, outside of the forum, do you have anything to gain commercially from making people aware of health and safety issues?

I’m not sure what you mean!!!!!! ………or what relevance’s it has to this thread……. Can you clarify what it the intention of your question…….

I don’t think it’s any secret that my new business as part of the range sells Anti-Fatigue and Safety matting www.matting-systems.com and yes I do try and advise people on the correct use of the products I sell….. as I have always done with any product I have sold over the last 30 years or so…..

……nor have I ever made any secret on this forum or others of my interest in following correct safety procurers in business….

Most of my working life as I said involved health and safety issues in some make or shape…….. at one stage in my career I managed a team of up to a 1000 workers in Ireland…….one of my responsibilities was to ensure correct safety and hygiene attitudes and procurers….

Now if you can please clarify what your question is about I would be most grateful ….

[John]

Ok folks.

Lets agree to differ on this one and move on to something new.

[Dermot]

Thanks for opening this thread.....

To the top

[markw]

As the thread was locked I decided to open similar thread on the grumble - It didnt cause the same uproar as this thread - My reading of the replys was that many framers already use acrylic in sensitive situations - many dont like using it.
I can only add that I hate using acrylic for two simple reason: static electricity making cleaning a real problem, and the ease of abrasion causing surface damage. The newer plastics cant be cut with standard workshop equipment and the stuff that can be cut in the workshop can be difficult to cut. Having said that I have taken on board many of the comments made about health and safety and have started recomending plastic in certain situations - I have opted to recomend art shield as it has a non scratch surface - its expensive and has to be cut by the supplier (Glass and Mirror) but its a good alternative to glass if safety is an issue and my customer is prepared to pay for the added expense of the recommended product.