Is this the way forward

Manor Fine Arts · Post by **Manor Fine Arts** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 7:29 pm

Hi everyone
I was in Spain recently and visited two picture framing outlets, both shops worked in the same way.as follows.

The selection of the moulding and Mounts etc was carried out in the same way as most framing outlets here in the UK .
however...........
The lengths of moulding were on display and were sold only in full lenghts
ie
if the work requires the use of a second length to complete the work,the customer pays for the full lengths used (thus avoiding waste to the framer and creating the possibility for a further framing charge for using the remainder of the unused frame length on a separate framing job.

I would be interested in your thoughts

norymags · Post by **norymags** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 7:59 pm

Well its sounds good and I would like to think my customers neither would mind nor notice, but I suspect that the paying public might just get frightened off at the surprising increase on the price of their framing.

I suspect that if you charged them for whole lengths they would want to take the leftover home with them.

What I would suggest is that all lengths are the same that means 10 feet, not 8 feet or sometimes 6 foot lenthgs because we are already along that path of charging per length anyway when it comes to that stupid size.

Suck it and see and give us your feedback on it...Norrie

Are 6 foot lenghts a pain in the .... ?

Manor Fine Arts · Post by **Manor Fine Arts** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 8:06 pm

Hi Norymags

If all framers were singing from the same song sheet and everyone sold lengths only, it would become the norm.

If the take the frame home with them no problem they have the wood you have the sale.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 8:09 pm

I don't think this is a very good way to do business. Build wastage costs in or use chop service if you don't want the offcuts, but Joe Public shouldn't be openly shown that he is paying for more than he is getting.

Imagine walking home with a bag of chips and half a raw spud in your pocket!

Manor Fine Arts · Post by **Manor Fine Arts** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 8:21 pm

Hi Roboframer
Thanks for your thoughts, the main reason for this action would be to create more sales in moulding and possible further framing contracts using the remainder of moulding,

Not going home with a half a spud

PS Chips are bad for you

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 8:57 pm

I have found after seventeen years framing that you eventually use up most of your moulding. If you have a large surplus of unused moulding there are more customer friendly ways of moving it than trying to foist it on customers who don't want or need it. Like offering discounts. Personally I would have nothing to do with this type of business.

Framing Norah · Post by **Framing Norah** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 9:05 pm

Don't think it would fly with our customers somehow.

I take it that these shops carry no stock, ordering enough for each job as it comes in, and are simply passing on the same terms of trading that they are being given by their suppliers.

I wouldn't want to have to tell a customer that his 30 x 20 1/2 frame is going to cost £20 more than his 30 x 20 did last week.

Framing Norah · Post by **Framing Norah** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 9:14 pm

Hey Peter,

Didn't notice your first post there.

You are obviously not one to rush into things.

Great to have you on board, but please don't leave it another two and a half years before your next post.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 9:50 pm

We buy by the length, as I am sure most people do.

Not really sure that 'the old dear' who wants a 12" x 16" X stitch framed would be willing to carry home a length of 4 foot plus moulding as well. Assuming a 9 foot delivery length.

We, take advantage of our 'off cuts' by turning them into 'Ready Mades' and they seem to be flying off the shelves, especially the smaller ones at photo sizes. Hence more profit for us.

Gives us something to do in the quieter periods as well..

Manor Fine Arts · Post by **Manor Fine Arts** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 10:13 pm

I knew this topic would be great for debate

Manor Fine Arts · Post by **Manor Fine Arts** » Wed 01 Mar, 2006 10:16 pm

I must agree with Robo framer this not the way to do business but it seems to work in these Spanish shops.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Fri 03 Mar, 2006 10:27 pm

I'm a big fan of the "make it into ready mades" method -Like John we can sell as many of these as we can make- and the knock-on is the selling of more ready cut mounts.... also made from scraps...

"we sell holes"

So in a roundabout way the customer does buy all the moulding, but it might be spread between a couple or three customers

Dermot · Post by **Dermot** » Sun 05 Mar, 2006 1:39 pm

After a short while in business you should have some idea of your waste factor…..and have this cost should be built into your price …..for example when I was framing I had a waste factor as follows Glass 23% (I was buying glass very well)....Moulding 25% mount board 28%......these percentages were tacked on to my list price from the supplier and the waste factor along with a carriage percentage gave a TRUE landed cost of the good in my shop ……………it was only on the TRUE landed cost that I put my mark up on…….this is standard costing method in most if not all manufacturing industries worldwide……

Wastage is a cost just like any other business cost and must be accounted for…………

Wastage will vary from shop to shop depending on your set up…..

Dispose of your waste your are in the picture framing business NOT the waste business

I don’t know what part of Spain you were in but this was not my general experience of the framing business in Spain………. Madrid, Barcelona, Bilbo, Valencia, Zargossa (sp) Seville, Palma…..and the South Coast of main land Spain……the framing shops I visited in Spain sold completed frames…………

Accounting for waste in your cost is the same as selling full lengths of moulding

Dermot

markw · Post by **markw** » Sun 05 Mar, 2006 4:18 pm

I agree with Dermot - waste is waste - how many useless sticks of moulding do you have just cluttering up your workshop. Its one of the reasons that chop works for me - no waste on moulding -it just costs a little more in the first place.

John Ranes II, CPF, GCF · Tue 07 Mar, 2006 1:06 am

Dermot wrote:...I don’t know what part of Spain you were in but this was not my general experience of the framing business in Spain………. Madrid, Barcelona, Bilbo, Valencia, Zargossa (sp) Seville, Palma…..and the South Coast of main land Spain……the framing shops I visited in Spain sold completed frames…………

I would concur with Dermot on this as I have taught mat cutting classes throughout Spain and visited dozens of shops, and never really ran into this practice. Having said this, each country has it's own unique business practices, and Spain is particularly good at respecting it's old heritage.

As has been discussed here, wastage factor is always greater when stocking length inventory. Vendors vary and some types of wood (timber) have higher percentages of waste. Also to consider is the storage expense, so I would estimate that framers in the U.S. mark up chops 1.8x-3.0x, while they may mark up moulding stocked in length 3x-7x.

Chop and Length both have their place MarkW

Regards,

John

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Is this the way forward = Spanish framing practices?