Sticking together a multi-aperture double mount

[Bagpuss]

Hi,
this is probably more directed to anyone who has a Valiani or another CMC machine, I have a pneumatic Valiani mat-pro and I'm about to cut a mount for a football shirt with 3 additional apertures for a plaque, ticket and programme.

What I would normally do is cut the top mount and bottom mount the same size, set the stops up on the machine, cut the first aperture out on the top mount, remove the mount, place the bottom mount in place and adjust the spacers to 5mm so I can cut the bottom mount, I hope that makes sense ...
When I have eventually adjusted all the stops and cut all the apertures I will then use double sided tape to stick the top and bottom mounts together.

I understand that some framers with a CMC machine will cut a multi-aperture double mount in one hit by sticking the top and bottom mounts together and then letting the CMC machine cut a double mount from the front in one go.

What I would like to know is how do you know where to place double sided tape on the bottom mount so that when the top mount is stuck on top and the apertures are cut out they don't just lift away around the apertures.... does that make sense ? It would be great if I could cut the top and bottom mount together, it's just a question of how I stick them together. Any tips ?

Thanks,
Adam / Bagpuss

[Roboframer]

I don't stick the 'bars' beween the apertures - just the perimeters, with ATG tape and PVA.

If I wanted to stick the bars between the apertures I'd cut the two boards separately - but that would be a pain to line up when sticking together - can't be bothered to do that even with a single aperture!

Though I suppose I could cut the top mount, remove it, apply adhesive on the back between the apertures, then put both boards back in and cut the bottom mount.

[John]

This is how I used the Mat-Pro:

Put both mounts into the machine and cut all apertures, top and bottom, without removing them. The clamps will not allow the mounts to move relative to one another while they are being cut. Then glue them together with PVA after they have been cut.

Only use this method if you have what my father used call 'a straight eye in you head', and are able to line up the pair so that the undermount is revealed evenly. Run a hand roller over the top mount before the glue sets to ensure better bonding.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks for those tips Gents, it's always goood to learn something new

with thanks,
Adam / Bagpuss

[Nigel Nobody]

Put both mounts into the machine and cut all apertures, top and bottom, without removing them. The clamps will not allow the mounts to move relative to one another while they are being cut. Then glue them together with PVA after they have been cut.

I do exactly the same as John with an addition of a little ATG, here and there, just to hold it all together while the PVA dries.

[Roboframer]

OK - here's a smartarse idea for anyone that has a CMC - well, a CMC that can cut on more than one level like the Valiani.

Put just the bottom mount in and emboss the top mount apertures on it (or you could set the blade depth to very lightly score) Apply your adhesive between the embossed/scored lines, stick the top mount on top and cut as normal.

[Bagpuss]

OK - here's a smartarse idea for anyone that has a CMC - well, a CMC that can cut on more than one level like the Valiani.

Put just the bottom mount in and emboss the top mount apertures on it (or you could set the blade depth to very lightly score) Apply your adhesive between the embossed/scored lines, stick the top mount on top and cut as normal.

Now that really is a TOP TIP, I like that one Roboframer Just need to save up a few bob for an all singing, all dancing Valiani .....

[Jared Davis CPF, GCF]

I understand that some framers with a CMC machine will cut a multi-aperture double mount in one hit by sticking the top and bottom mounts together and then letting the CMC machine cut a double mount from the front in one go.

What I would like to know is how do you know where to place double sided tape on the bottom mount so that when the top mount is stuck on top and the apertures are cut out they don't just lift away around the apertures.... does that make sense ? It would be great if I could cut the top and bottom mount together, it's just a question of how I stick them together. Any tips ?

You raise a good point - and you are right if you cut a double mount on a CMC "all in one go" you don't know where to put the ATG until after it is all cut? ....Especially when you DO want to to the ATG tape in "the bars" of a multiple apeture?

The whole concept of this "We can cut a double mount from the front in one process!" feature is a bit of a fallacy somewhat, and in my opinion, a sales gimmick. For example, even though a Gunnar CMC is fully capable of doing this, "cut a double mount from the front" method completely automated and uninterrupted, not many Gunnar CMC owners I know actually use this feature.... because there is a "better", more pratical way --> "cut from the back".

Double Mount - "cut from the back" method -
Start by cutting your top mount "face down" and cut only that layer first. Leave the mount positioned under the clamps of the CMC (including the fallouts), and now you can clearly apply your ATG where it really needs to go, no "guessing" required.... now slap on your bottom mount (or next layer) and hit cut... job done - and glued - and aligned perfectly! This method also facilitates for you to be able to use a smaller sized piece of mountboard for your bottom layers, if required. However this method works better on a horizontal machine than an angled/vertical machine.

Cheers,

Jared Davis MCPF, GCF
The "Gunnar CMC Guy" from Down Under

[Trinity]

Thanks Jared I can compute this.

[Roboframer]

I don't think cutting multiple layers face up or down is any sort of sales gimmick - it's just a useful feature and the beauty of being able to cut up to a TRIPLE mount "all in one go" is that, if you want, you can also emboss, 'V'' groove or even draw on the top mount as well - without moving a thing apart from removing fall-outs. In fact you'll do all that embossing/ 'V' grooving/drawing first; around as many apertures as you want or/and around the whole thing. Then the top aperture(s) will be cut and then the next one(s) down and then another if you want.

If it's (say) a single aperture, but a double mount with (say) a mount (mat) margin of 3" - you don't have to apply adhesive SMACK up to the aperture - two inches is fine and you can do that by eye, or, if you don't trust your eye/REALLY want the adhesive smack up to the aperture, you can make your machine mark that aperture for you before cutting. I don't see the need though and have never done it - just an idea to solve a problem for someone that wants to.

Anyway, as I said - I don't worry about the 'bars' between multiple apertures, just the perimeters as normal - all I worry about is the top and bottom mounts moving - (Mat creep) don't have a problem with the 'bars' separating - not now I've got a CMC and never previous - it's not an issue - but if I want to do it I can - and so could I manually.

I cut my bottom mount(s) slightly smaller than my top mount - stick them together within the mount width and cut - all I have to do is remove the fallout when prompted - the method Jared describes, is what I used to do manuallly, face down, and I didn't lash out the price of a nice car to have to do the same.

[Trigger]

Hi Bagpuss

Sorry to jump in late on this one, but thought we would add our thoughts as well.

We have been using a Valiani Mat-Pro for a few years now (have just upgraded to a Valiani CMC as well, but have kept the pneumatic for jumbo boards). Anyway, we always used to cut our double or triple mounts separately and then try to fit them together evenly. Then we did the sensible thing and watched the DVD that came with the machine! Wished we had done that at the start

To cut double or triple mounts in "one go" you just need to put both cut to size boards in together and set the stops for the correct margins. When you cut the top layer, it leaves a very fine cut line with the tip of the blade in the next layer down. This means that for anything more complicated that a single aperture you can easily see where to put the ATG tape when you take the boards out and it is easily all lined up again because there is a fine line showing exactly where to fit the mounts together.

We cut loads of multi apertures that way and it always worked a treat.

Hope that helps.

Trigger

[Bagpuss]

To cut double or triple mounts in "one go" you just need to put both cut to size boards in together and set the stops for the correct margins. When you cut the top layer, it leaves a very fine cut line with the tip of the blade in the next layer down.

Hi, thanks for your thoughts on this, I can see where you're coming from but I am doing a double mount for a football shirt with a plaque, programme, ticket and VIP pass which means a total of 5 seperate apertures. Your method would mean I would have to set up the stops 10 times instead of 5, I will set up the stops 5 times and then flick the spacer thingys to cut a 5mm double mount for each window, I would have to cut the 5 windows inintially, then apply the tape and then set the stops again for the 5 double mounts, too much work for my liking
I wish I had a CMC Valiani ..... one day maybe

[Steve N]

I think what Trigger means is that you put both mounts in together, cut each window as you normally do, cut the top mount, move the spacers in, cut the bottom mount. Cut all your windows, take the mounts off the machine, use the score marks as a guide to apply you atg tape (bits here and there), then re-align the mounts using the score lines to guide you. That's the way I used to do it and sometimes still do with my CMC , depending on the size of the mount and the numbers of windows that have been cut.

Steve

[Trigger]

Thanks, that is exactly what I meant. Sorry I didn't explain it very well.

Only the need to set the stops once for each aperture, just flip the spacers for the next layer!

Trigger

[Roboframer]

I'm missing a couple of things (apart from marbles)

1. What's the problem anyway - I don't have it; not even on a 50 aperture cigarette card double mount.

No adhesive here and it's not even framed - no weight of glass to help press the top mount on to the bottom one - no need.

The bars are one inch wide overall with a quarter inch reveal of the bottom mount - IOW the top mount bars are only half an inch wide. Do I want to apply double sided tape on that small an area? (nope!) Do I want to risk wet adhesive squishing out on to the bottom mount (big nope!)

cigcards1.jpg

2. Let's say that was a 50 aperture single mount - I still would not need to stick the mount to the undermount.

3. If you really do want/need to stick double multiple aperture mounts together with adhesive on the bars between the apertures, why rely on score marks on the bottom mount to apply adhesive between, when all you have to do is flip the already-cut top mount over and apply adhesive to the bars?

[Nigel Nobody]

I've seen too many multi-opening double mats (some with only a few openings) come in that haven't been stuck together and the two mats have varying amount of space showing between them, so I always stick em together. The back only has to bulge out a little for this to happen. Maybe it's the climate down here?

My adhesive always goes on the back of the top mat, just as Robo says! I can't imagine doing it any other way.

[Bagpuss]

Oh I wish I had a Valiani CMC ...

Well as suggested, I cut my 2 mounts and then rather laboriously I worked out where to lay my double sided tape on the back of the top mount, squirted some glue in there as well and weighted the bottom mount on the back of the top mount until it had stuck firmly together. I then clamped the two mounts in my Mat-Pro CMC and cut the 5 apertures out individually, cutting the top mount, then flicking the spacers and cutting the bottom mount. As if by magic, it worked a treat, although I might try and stick them together afterwards instead of before cutting. Live and learn ...
cheers,
Adam/Bagpuss

[John]

Like Ormond, we have re-framed loads of jobs where the original top and bottom mounts were not properly stuck together. No doubt when they left the framer the two mounts lay nicely against each other, but over the years the effects of gravity, variations in temperature, and humidity take their toll and they end up looking pretty gappy.

For that reason we always ensure that the mounts are well stuck together, particularly any narrow bars. It only takes a moment.

[Roboframer]

Okay - going back to this

Let's say that was a 50 aperture single mount - I still would not need to stick the mount to the undermount.

Say you've got eight items to mount and, for whatever reason, (e.g. paper larger than image etc) they are only about 5mm apart under the 'bars' of the multiple aperture, which could be any width.

Will the bars bow from the undermount?

[Bagpuss]

Sorry to have to bring this up again, have just sat down feeling a bit dizzy after banging my head against the wall ... I'm doing a double mount for a framed football shirt, 2 apertures, the big one for the shirt, a smaller one at the bottom for a nameplate. As I'm cutting it on my Valiani mat-pro 120, I cut from the front, put 2 sheets of matboard in the machine and cut top and bottom mountg at the same time. I take them out,
put very high tack adhesive tape on the bottom mount and a dribble of glue around the edges, see photo attached. I then, very carefully try and allign the top mount with the bottom mount and what happens next is that it misalligns and I can't adjust the top mount and it's totally stuffed I have destroyed 2 mounts this morning .... and it's only 7.30am ..

Should I just stop using tape ? Only use glue ? I'm paranoid about the top mount lifting from the bottom, hence the high-tack tape I've always used..

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