pricing standardisation

sarah · Post by **sarah** » Wed 26 Apr, 2006 10:34 am

When you phone for a plumber, spark, or another craftsman you know roughly that you will spend £30ish on a call out charge (£130 if you’re in London). As a customer you expect this, you expect to pay a certain price for certain product give or take a few quid, so why do people nearly keel over when a framer tells them that their precious Johny's school photo will not cost the £5 they expected. Why did they expect it to cost a fiver in the first place?!?!

In my opinion it’s because of the people who have no pricing structure, the “ah just give me a tenner” brigade!! Bugger off; charge what the job is worth!! If we all did that if we all charged the right price – regardless of the fact of it being a hobby or a profession – customers would realise that to custom frame a school photo is going to cost them roughly £20-£30 not £2-£5

Bring on the pricing police, I imagine them something like the Gestapo with copies of EstLite, FrameMan, and any other pricing software in their briefcases. For those found charging below the standard rate they would torture them with a guild meeting, and threaten them with framers points.

Being serious I feel that the suppliers have a duty to ensure that framers charge the right price. At the end of the day it is their interest, the more profitable we are the more orders we’re going to place and the more profitable they’ll be!

It is a real bone of contention for me, I hate hearing those seven words – “my mate can do it for cheaper”. If that ‘s the case let your mate do it and watch it fall apart in a week!!

So on that note have a great day folks

Lemon_Drop · Post by **Lemon_Drop** » Wed 26 Apr, 2006 7:27 pm

Hi Sarah, It seems to me that the first line of your post on pricing structures, answer your question. It depends on what location your are living. I dont really know the pricing call out rates but using your call out charges guide it seems that it all depends on where you live and what the market will take in your area. The call out charges in London are £100 dearer that elsewhere or so it seems and londonders are willing to pay that price, but the areas where the call out charge is only £30 do you think that those people living in those areas would mind a increase of £100, i dont think so. So I think its not really practical to have a standard pricing policy in the UK or Ireland , because alot depends on your overhead costs and the location your operate from. As for moulding suppliers taking on the job of enforcing a standard pricing structure. and oversee its use I dont they really care all the want is to sell moulding and if you order 500Ft, of moulding from them and pay for it, why should they care if you use it to make frames or use it on bonfire night to get things started? The phrase that your mate can do it cheaper might be true if your live in London and your mate lives in some other location, and he will still show the same profit margins that you make. I'm sorry if this replay seems a bit sarcastic, its realy not meant to be. I just think really pricing structures are governed by where you live and what the market will pay.

sarah · Post by **sarah** » Thu 27 Apr, 2006 11:33 am

I think what I was trying to say was that I think customers need to made aware that bespoke framing doesn't cost the same as a ready made thing from the pound shop.

They are more than ready to accept that having their car serviced is going to cost them £x why shouldn't framers expect cusomers to be a tad more clued into the cost of bespoke framing. I think it all boils down to the fact that there are people out there who don't charge correctly and give those who do a harder time whan trying to make a living.

mick11 · Post by **mick11** » Thu 27 Apr, 2006 3:54 pm

sarah wrote:When you phone for a plumber, spark, or another craftsman you know roughly that you will spend £30ish on a call out charge (£130 if you’re in London). As a customer you expect this, you expect to pay a certain price for certain product give or take a few quid, so why do people nearly keel over when a framer tells them that their precious Johny's school photo will not cost the £5 they expected. Why did they expect it to cost a fiver in the first place?!?!

Simple answer is:
You cannot get a cheap inported plumber, sparky etc from Asia. All your average consumer sees these days is the price.

sarah · Post by **sarah** » Fri 28 Apr, 2006 11:03 am

Yeah you have hit the nail on the head.

I'm all for a bargain, but it really bugs me when folk step out of their, mercs/bently's/BMW's and sashy into our place wearing their designer rags and then tell me that I'm having a laugh charging the prices I'm charging. I would love to be really blunt with them and just say - "well madam if you can't afford it.." But I don't think I would ever have the guts.

Ho Hum the joys of dealing with the public!

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Fri 28 Apr, 2006 11:38 am

Whenever a customer comes in with an expensive picture, proudly boasting at just how expensive is was, then asks for it to be framed as cheaply as possible.

I just ask them. Sir/Madam would you pay £500 for an evening dress/suit then pay only £20 for a pair of shoes.

9 times out of 10 the reply is. Well no I would not.

Thankyou Sir/Madam, let us now have a look at just how we can compliment your expensive picture with a decent frame.

Works quite well. Reverse psychology!!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 28 Apr, 2006 5:57 pm

Two of my favourite lines when asked for 'Cheap' or when told, "But I only paid £X for the picture.

1. "How cheap do you want it to LOOK exactly?"

2. "I could frame the Mona Lisa for less

"EH?"

"Well the Mona Lisa is 20 x 16" and would not need
glass your poster is 36 x 24" and DOES!

norymags · Post by **norymags** » Fri 28 Apr, 2006 6:15 pm

Goodness me what a carry on all about money!!!

The basics regarding the most enjoyed pricing policy is ....How much do you want to spend Sir/Madam Brother etc;? You offer them a question and they will gladly give an answer, almost certainly one that wont embarrass them either, that way you can either reel out some old moulding OR introduce them to something nicer, it doesn`t have to be the pricing structure the guy in the next town holds firm to.

I always try to give them a reasonable price and I also build into the price something I can give them back for nothing, like a double mount for the price of a single mount, or maybe a round up for 3 pictures and take a fiver off but always give a wee discount and they think they are the ones who and feeling good...

I dont ever suggest "give me a tenner" and stick it in the cashbox..

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Fri 28 Apr, 2006 8:00 pm

look what price controls did for Ted Heath

Not your average framer · Sat 29 Apr, 2006 8:12 pm

Hi,
It never bother what everone else charges, I am one of the most expensive in my area and I'm often slow due to the care I take and my workload, which includes many repeat orders from previously satisfied customers. I am more than happy for the cheap-skates to go elsewhere.

You can never please a cheap-skate!

If customers query my prices, I get a finished job from the rack and place an 8x Lupe (a photographic magnifier) over the corner of a mount aperture and tell them to look and see what they are paying for! Most of my competitor's mount cutting is not that good and the mitring with one or two is pretty bad and I make a point of telling customers what to look for!

If you think your work is worth the money, make sure that people know why. You won't regret it!
Cheers,
Mark

less · Post by **less** » Sat 13 May, 2006 8:53 pm

Hi,

I think this litte story is relevant to this thread.

A couple of days ago a customer came into the shop and asked how much I would charge to cut a 5.5 ins square mount with a 1ins border all round. I replied umm...£1.50 and I can do it for you right now!

The lady replied that she had just been to another framer who when asked the same question went to his computer, keyed in the details and told her the minimum charge for anything was £3.49

I cut the mount and the lady paid me the £1.50, then she picked up a greeting card and purchased that as well. Total sale? £3.49!

On her way out of the shop this customer told me that she is an artist and will be bringing her framing to me in future. I haven't the heart to tell the bloke down the road!

(by the way, I checked my costings later and I did make a small profit on the mount as well as the greeting card).

Regards

Les

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 13 May, 2006 9:51 pm

That's all well and good Les, and if you are happy with the profit - fine, how does that profit realate to an hourly rate?

The problem with this type of job, sometimes, is not the minimal material cost and time taken to make it, but the time taken by the customer to CHOOSE it! (the colour), sometimes also the time taken to do the maths when the image is disproportionate to the glass size.

That £1:50 job could prevent you from churning out a £150 one!

I have a minimum charge; it's more than £3.49! and I also have a fifteen minute rule, first 15 mins are free, if it goes to half an hour I add an 'embuggerance' charge of £10 per 15 mins after that. It's flexible!

In perspective - I went to a jeweller recently to have a link taken out of my watch strap, it took 45 seconds and I was charged £8:50, no materials whatsoever and quicker than I could fill in the order form for a mount!

Having said all that, for a GOOD customer I could do that job with my eyes shut, and probably for free! (they could pay for the card though!)

less · Post by **less** » Sat 13 May, 2006 10:31 pm

HI John,

the job took about 2 minutes from start to finish. Calculating my costs it worked out that I had charged the equivalent of around £40+ per hour. My standard hourly charge for labour is £30.

I like to think that a bit of goodwill sprinkled here and there pays dividends down the line. We are all too used to the idea of instant returns / gratification. I prefer to play the long game (though I have to say that if business doesn't pick up soon I might not be playing the game at all!)

The customer was clearly not impressed by my competitor, she seemed very pleased by my approach to business and customers in general. Something must be working somewhere because I had occasion to speak to someone unrelated to my business a few days ago and they told me that they had just been having a discussion about my shop - she lives a good few miles away!

I grew up at a time when service was still the norm. My first few jobs were in retail, in both small and large shops. The customer was always treated as King, not like it is today in many shops that I visit. I treat customers the way I would like to be treated, I like them to leave my shop knowing that their custom is both valued and appreciated.

Regards

Les

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 13 May, 2006 11:30 pm

Well, all valid points - my 'rules' are flexible. I think I have a nack for sussing out the 'something for nothing' customers and will pass them on to my competition with a huge smile!

The jeweller's hourly rate would work out at £680!

Not your average framer · Sun 14 May, 2006 8:15 pm

Hi Les,

Where else can you get a mount cut for £1.50? Even small off the shelf mounts in discount shops aren't as cheap as that. Who are you competing with?
Cheers,
Mark

mathematician · Post by **mathematician** » Mon 15 May, 2006 7:48 pm

Sarah

It’s an ongoing complaint by framers that the customer doesn’t appreciate the value of the product.
For a modest capital outlay anyone can buy some equipment and start framing. The truth is framing is not difficult – in fact any idiot could do it and many are.
It is quite possible and indeed likely that his £5 job is every bit as good as your £20 job. I don’t know the details but maybe you’re in retail premises and he’s in his garage.
It’s the customers money and they have the right to choose where they spend it. If you believe that the work you do merits the huge price difference then you should be able to explain this to your customer.
If you can’t then maybe you are overcharging.

Framing Norah · Post by **Framing Norah** » Mon 15 May, 2006 8:57 pm

Hi Mathematician,

Welcome to the forum.

How many customers, do you reckon, would need to have "explained" to them why the main dealer charges substantially more to fit a set of spark plugs than a back street mechanic, or why M&S sells a pair of nickers at 5 times the rate of those in a market stall?

Of course, you pays your money and you takes your choice.

But it does seem that for whatever reason, the differentials in spark plug fitting and nicker prices are accepted much more readily than those in picture framing.

Lemon_Drop · Post by **Lemon_Drop** » Mon 15 May, 2006 9:03 pm

Hi Less. 5.5 ins square mount with a 1ins border all round. most likely cut from scrap. @ £1.50. I tried cutting it, i takes 6 seconds, on a CMC, the standard size board give you 30 mounts, and that takes 3 minutes. Cost of board £5 - £7 approx. Gives you a nice profit of £38 for entering 4 measurements and clicking a button. Over 500% profit from on board.

But it seems like £1.50 is not enough to charge, for want basically is a drop out from a previously cut mount that has been paid for before, so money for scrap then, plus 6 seconds to cut it.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 15 May, 2006 9:36 pm

Lemon_Drop wrote:Hi Less. 5.5 ins square mount with a 1ins border all round. most likely cut from scrap. @ £1.50. I tried cutting it, i takes 6 seconds, on a CMC, the standard size board give you 30 mounts, and that takes 3 minutes. Cost of board £5 - £7 approx. Gives you a nice profit of £38 for entering 4 measurements and clicking a button. Over 500% profit from on board.
But it seems like £1.50 is not enough to charge, for want basically is a drop out from a previously cut mount that has been paid for before, so money for scrap then, plus 6 seconds to cut it.

Hands on time may be 6 seconds, but take into account the customer that empties your mount caddy/spinner/whatever and takes 20 minutes to choose the colour. Possibly while someone waiting to be served with a set of medals to frame gives up waiting and goes somewhere else. Then the time to move to your workshop, find the mountboard, do the maths - maybe re-adjust your machinery from a job you are half way through - THEN six seconds, has turned into nearly half an hour.

Where are you buying your boards? I'm paying £3.99 for alphamat artcare. (basic colour pallet - 200 odd colours) That's full price - I get a VERY good discount!

Most boards are 44 x 32" - you would get FORTY 5.5" mounts out of one.

We have a box full of mountboard off cuts in a box in the shop. Artists buy them for DIY or even to paint on. Mums buy them for their kids to scribble on, needleworkers buy them to lace needlwork on. They range from 10p to £1.

Once a lady brought a 50p offcut to the counter, asked us to reduce the size to 5x7 and cut an aperture in it, and thought it would then cost LESS because it would be smaller and would have a hole in the middle!

Sometimes I feel like saying to some people "Look, I'm a picture framer, that's pretty self-explanatory, you bring me a picture (etc) - I frame it. Have you got a picture for me to frame? NO? ...... NEXT!"

But I haven't, yet!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 15 May, 2006 9:59 pm

mathematician wrote:Sarah

For a modest capital outlay anyone can buy some equipment and start framing. The truth is framing is not difficult – in fact any idiot could do it and many are..

Welcome Mathematician,

Quite a controversial first post!

The operative word above is 'start'!

And the truth is that the basics are indeed not difficult, turning a long bit of wood into a square one, cutting two bits of cardboard (3 if you use an undermount - but this type of framer will not bother with that - after all you can't SEE it!), cutting a hole in one of said bits of cardboard, cutting a bit of glass and bunging it all together with a photo or a print in - hey - piece of cake.

But when that long bit of wood is a 4" wide scooped profile in ASH, when the mount is to match one with washlines and/or inlays, when the artwork is valuable and needs knowledge of how to secure it properly, when the same artwork needs UV glass, which is more difficult to handle, when the artwork is a set of fossils to be displayed with photos of owner digging them up, or an antique sampler, when you are required to cut a triple aperure triple mount, with the centre as an oval (no CMC - remember - modest outlay)

Some framers start up just as you describe, all the gear and no idea - make that some of the gear and no idea. They quickly self-teach themselves bad habits, ruining peoples' treasures on their way, set themselves low standards and rigidly stick to them.

Bring them on I say, I don't have a problem with other framers making me look good at their expense!

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