The Framers Forum

Hello all. I have just put together a needlework piece which when assembled (glass, double mount,spacer mount, foamboard holding the needlework, foamboard to hold excess cloth, barrier and backboard) leaves the back surface of the backboard flush with the bottom edge of the moulding. I could use a deeper rebate moulding, but would like to stick with what I have which I am going to hand finish in gold. I would be grateful for any thoughts on how I can fix the package securely together.

Thanks
Tim

If it's perfectly flush then it could be worse, it could be proud of (sticking out the back of) the rebate.

Not sure what you mean by this .....

AllFramed wrote:foamboard to hold excess cloth

But here's some ideas anway.

1. Fire your points over the barrier board instead of the backing board, then

2. Drop the backing board in and seal that with tape, or, if that doesn't look too clever, then

(2.) Make the backing board larger and glue it to the back of the frame as per a dust cover.

What backing board are you using?

If it is MDF or something hard you can bevel it with a small plane.

If foamboard you can often "squash" the edges to get a similar result

Another alternative is to make small triangular nicks and use brads or pins.

Hello Robo,

Thanks for the constructive suggestions. The back is just about perfectly flush so pointing over the barrier and sticking the backboard is a good option.

Re the "excess cloth": After stretching the needlework there is quite an excess of cloth left over which I have folded in behind the finished item. The stitching is on a large piece of plain close woven linen type cloth and I have done this to prevent it pushing up the needlework when all is sandwiched together. I am reluctant to cut the cloth without permission.

Thanks
Tim

Thank you Ian, I am using MDF for this as it is marginally thinner than the Art-Bak. I have seen a little gadget in the Lion catalogue to bevel edges for exactly that problem, sometimes you need someone else to remind you. I may try that with a small plane to see how it looks.

Could you use flexible points? Fire the points in without the backboard, bend them up, drop in the backboard and bend them flat.

I know FATG don't like them but I've never subscribed to that philosophy - in fact I use them all the time even when they don't need bending.

Hi Mike,

Forgive the stupid question, why are we not supposed to use flexi points? What should we be using instead?

A supplier i have here was horrified when i told him i used Flexi points and sent me some non flexi points! I cant get the damned things into the frame!!!!!!!!

Many Thanks,

Sandra

For a while I used flexi points fired from a pnuematic gun for convenience (laziness).

Then a customer brought back in a piece I had framed they had knocked off the wall. I was horrified to see how the flexi points had bent backwards. Luckily it was just a straight glass replecement but it could have been worse. Since then I have gone back to using rigid points.

I use flexi-points only on ready-made frames and use staples fired from a pneumatic gun for all other work, in the case of flush fitting backing board, I fire staples through the backing into the frame, hold everything secure, holding the gun at a slight angle, the staple goes into the backing and out through the edge of the backing into the frame, does not break the inner surface of the backing board.

Steve

We're not supposed to use flexipoints because FATG says so. Dunno why.

I use a Fletcher Multimaster. It uses flexipoints that have two barbs (http://www.lionpic.co.uk/product/F-T-MU ... ,8968.aspx).

I used to use an Italian manual gun - in fact I have two, one loaded with rigid points and the other loaded with flexipoints.

I then bought the Fletcher for a job where I needed to put screws through the points and have used it ever since. The other two guns are gathering dust underneath the bench. The points are much thinner than others I've used (so they can be used within a mm or so of the edge of the moulding) and hold very tightly. So far (in the 18 months to 2 years I've been using it) I've not had any problems at all.

I'm probably one of the few who still use triangle points. They win out in this situation because I can bevel the backboard and fire them at an angle. Beacause they are short compared with the new-fangled type framers points they don't stick out so far so they fit snugly along the beveled edge.

If the moulding is wide enough, a strip of timber can be screwed to the back to extend the rebate. Rose&Hollis do a selection of PSE obeche in various sizes. They also do a plain bevelled slip that can be used for the same purpose with the bevel on the outside if the strip comes too near the edge of the frame.

Nothing wrong with using flexipoints IMHO. As long as you put plenty in.

I don't think that flexi-points should be the first solution to considered in this situation and I would suggest that the FATG standards do not recommend flexi-points for anything other than ready made frames for a very good reason. That is because they will easily give when subjected to pressure and lack the resilience to return to their original position. There are other options which may be more appropiate and far more satisfactory.

So far no one has mentioned semi-rigid points. If you have a gun which fires universal pattern flexi-points, then check out semi-rigid points they are the same physical size as flexi-points, but they are made with a more rigid grade of metal. They are a lot stronger and significantly more resilient than flexi-points.

Many backing boards can be compressed at their edges to create suficient space for inserting rigid points, without significantly affecting the mechanical properties of the boards.

Some so called "conservation" backing boards may permit framing without a mountboard "under mount" between the art and the back. Of course this does not comply with FATG conservation standards, but if you are aiming to avoid building out the back of the frame or using an appropiate depth of moulding, then price is clearly your main criteria. This is budget solution for a budget framing job and can save both time and materials costs.

WelshFramer wrote:We're not supposed to use flexipoints because FATG says so.

Poppycock! That's all I have to say about that!

On second thoughts, I do have more to say.
I find it a little odd that anyone would advise against the use of flexipoints and on the other hand recommend the use of MDF!

Unless you are going for the ultimate in conservation, just fire your staples at an angle through the edge of the MDF backing and into the frame, making a good robust job of it.

It is probably worth pointing out that there are a variety of different manufacturers of flexi-points. Some are stiffer than others, while some are much more flexible than others.

By way of an example, has anyone compared the stiffness of a Fletcher flexi-point with a Cassesse arrowhead flexi-point which also fits the Fletcher Flexi-Master. The difference is stiffness and resilience is enomous.

The Fletcher flexi-point is very much stiffer and more resilient than the Cassesse, but the Cassesse is significantly cheaper. So you have a choice....Stiff or cheap!

This fact can create difficulties for those in the FATG who have the job of defining standards. If all flexi-points were of equal characteristics, then perhaps the FATG might have expressed their opinions of flexi-points differently, but there is no such problem with rigid points.

I can see a certain amount of logic in the FATG thinking. We still have the option to decide if the flexi-points we choose to stock are adequate for the particular use, before using them. Standards bodies have to be more exacting and circumspect in what they specify.

Use both flexi AND rigid points.

Fix your barrier board in with rigid points. In between each rigid point fix a flexipoint. Bend the flexi points back. Insert the backing board. Bend back the flexi points. Tape up the back. Quick, secure, simple.

we do alot of needleworks and get this problem often we either use brass picture turns or make the backboard larger and staple it on but with no glue as you never know for some reason you might have too get into it again

Well that seems to have opened a can of worms, which was not the intention but is never the less interesting as ever. Thanks for the constructive suggestions. My old IT boss from time to time contacts me to see if I am bored yet, in need of mental stimulation and wanting to return to the vipers nest. I find this problem solving quite mentally stimulating.

Not your average framer wrote: but if you are aiming to avoid building out the back of the frame or using an appropiate depth of moulding, then price is clearly your main criteria.

This is not intended to be a cut price solution, a great deal of care has gone into the preparation of this and the chosen moulding is being hand finished. It is more about some degree of inexperience on my part and the desire to overcome a problem and retain the original design. It would appear that the problem is not unique.

Thanks again for the input. Tim

My method is as follows (assuming the contents of the frame are at the same level as the rebate depth)

Cut the backing board (corri cor or whatever) bigger than the apeture by about 15/20mm in each direction.
Staple that flush on the back of the frame. Tape over the edges as normal.