How much?!

[Peter]

As a customer of Sisslings I know Dave. But I'm amazed at the price you came up with for a 20 x 16 frame. I have no idea what framing costs are in the UK, but over here I think 103.00 euros is very high. Maybe that price is indicative of Dublin prices but here in the west I would charge about half that. Which moulding are you pricing ?

[Framing Norah]

Peter,

I envy you your location. A couple of years ago I spent a delightful time travelling along the west coast of Ireland. While there I took a keen interest in the local galleries and frame shops, like you do, and noted that galleries would display two prices on their pictures, one including the frame, and the other without.

I was amazed to see prices like €845/€800 on oils in quite expensive looking, hand finished, multi-part (box) frames, which seem to be an Irish speciality. Of course this is a good strategy for a gallery operating in a tourist area, it maximises revenue for sales of unframed pieces, which is the way I imagine most tourists will buy.

However, it devalues the frame in the eyes of the customer, and makes life hard for the local framers as they try to match the deceptively low prices that the galleries appear to be charging for their frames.

[Laurie Mitchener]

Just registered for the forum and found the discussion on this topic fascinating. I'm a serious hobbiest who takes on occasional work (recently completed 80 pcs - each bespoke and individually priced). I haven't got the overheads of a business, but I am very conscious of the need to price my skills correctly.
Before retiring, I was in distribution / service which was very profit orientated and very labour intensive. Management of Profit & Loss was a major factor in this 'previous life' and old habits die hard.
Out of necessity and being computer literate, I have developed a pricing tool to help me arrive at realistic prices. Based on the info available I would price this piece at £48.60, assuming no unforseen gliches caused added time & material. I recently framed a signed football shirt & progs etc of similar dimensions for £54.
This included Moulding (£3.00 mtr), glass, mount & backboard and fittings. There is a built in wastage factor and labour is costed in 'qtr-hr' units (variable), based on £20 ph so if I get a tricky job, the labour is adjusted accordingly. I've yet to have a complaint....
Thanks for an interesting read, I'll continue to watch now I'm a member.
LaurieM

[John]

Hi LaurieM,

Welcome to the forum

JustThanks for an interesting read, I'll continue to watch now I'm a member.
LaurieM

And make the odd post now and then, I hope.

[Roboframer]

Based on the info available I would price this piece at £48.60, assuming no unforseen gliches caused added time & material. I recently framed a signed football shirt & progs etc of similar dimensions for £54.
This included Moulding (£3.00 mtr), glass, mount & backboard and fittings.

A few points on that Laurie, (but before I start - pricing is a minefield of a subject)

1. When you quote a price to a customer you need to be able to tell them the cost - not an estimate - you're not a plumber! Unforseen glitches are things that YOU did not anticipate and should have - it's not the customer's problem.

2. You must have done some serious folding to get that football shirt to around 20 x 16" - esp including programmes etc - what sort of space did you leave around it if any?

3. Why was the framed shirt only £5.40 more than a watercolour of similar size - how did you space it from the glass, how long did it take you to make it frame-ABLE, how did you MAKE it frame-able? Because you did not include that in your pricing above.

When someone brings me a football (etc) shirt I let them know, as early in the design process as possible, that they will get no change from £120 -and that assumes that it is folded neatly to around 26 x 22" with a 2" space around and in a choice of default deep-rebated frames.

If they want the sleeves out so you have a 'T' shape, or if they want title apertures, mount slips, photos/programmes/etc included - then that is extra. Or they can opt for most any NON deep-rebated frame and I can make a box - that will be extra too - as will speciality glass etc etc etc.

You cannot be pricing this job correctly if you are DOING it correctly.

How are you doing it?

[osgood]

Robo,
I would like to know how you get a football shirt down to 26 x 22 and still have it look like a shirt and not a flat rectangular piece of fabric? Or are your football players all pygmies???
Down here in Oz we do shirts so that they still look like shirts which make the frame size almost an entire 32 x 40 sheet of matboard.
I charge $550 and some other framers only charge half that, but they jam the shirt up against the glass and staple it to a piece of mdf or thick acidic cardboard and probably some other horrible practises too!

This included Moulding (£3.00 mtr), glass, mount & backboard and fittings. There is a built in wastage factor and labour is costed in 'qtr-hr' units (variable), based on £20 ph so if I get a tricky job, the labour is adjusted accordingly. I've yet to have a complaint....

Laurie,
I'm not surprised you haven't had any complaints about your pricing.
I don't know how much time you have allowed for this job, but I allow between four and five hours for each one.
Just for your interest, my material cost (including 30% waste) is around $200, which includes three and a half sheets of Alphamat, two sheets of artcare foamboard, one sheet of clear glass and a 45 mm deep moulding for a frame approx 38" x 32" and a few incidental fittings and $50 tax.

[Roboframer]

Robo,
I would like to know how you get a football shirt down to 26 x 22 and still have it look like a shirt and not a flat rectangular piece of fabric? Or are your football players all pygmies???
Down here in Oz we do shirts so that they still look like shirts which make the frame size almost an entire 32 x 40 sheet of matboard.

Firstly I'm at home, going by memory, but yes, the most popular way here is to frame shirts folded - a rectangle with a collar basically. Sometimes they are done 'as per', sometimes they are done in double sided frames - both sides visible.

As I said ..."If they want the sleeves out so you have a 'T' shape, or if they want title apertures, mount slips, photos/programmes/etc included - then that is extra. Or they can opt for most any NON deep-rebated frame and I can make a box - that will be extra too - as will speciality glass etc etc etc...."


Usually folded is OK - you can see it's a shirt - you can see the/all the signatures - I personally hate the sleeves sticking out so that you have a 'T' shape with lots of wasted/negative space under the arms - unless maybe you can fiill that space with ephemara (God - where did THAT word come from and did I spell it right??) but I won't talk the customer out of that if that is what they want.

Football/rugby players don't run about with their arms outstretched all the time. They could be lined up for the National Anthem with their arms folded or protecting their manhood from a free kick. It's a shirt - do what you want with the sleeves, it will always look like a shirt.

I've just measured one of my 'T' shirts - Its 29" long x 23" wide at the centre. If I fold the sleeves in it stays that size. So my above size is on the money, as I'd also probably fold the bottom up too as usually the back is longer than the front and looks like crap with all the seams and hem showing.

[osgood]

I personally hate the sleeves sticking out so that you have a 'T' shape with lots of wasted/negative space under the arms -

Me too! I fold the arms either over the shirt or under so that only a small amount of the 'T' shape is visible. I will post a photo of one in the next few days to show what I mean.

Football/rugby players don't run about with their arms outstretched all the time.

No they don't, but we are not framing the players - only the shirt, and my opinion is that the job looks more authentic if part of the sleeves is visible, otherwise it can look like someone has gone berserk and cut them off!
Sleeves and collars are both important parts of a shirt and I would not want to frame a shirt in a way that didn't show any part of either of these components.

[Roboframer]

I think we do things the same

We usually fold the sleeves over the front, but never end up with a 'box' there is always a wider part at the sleeve area. But we do not base the width of the frame on that area, we measure the 'rectangle' and add 2 or 3 inches of space around it - that space will incorporate the sleeve area.

(Edit - now we are getting into how TO and not how MUCH - maybe discussion and photos can continue on relevant forum)

[osgood]

(Edit - now we are getting into how TO and not how MUCH - maybe discussion and photos can continue on relevant forum)

I think "How Much" entirely depends on "How To". The old saying about comparing apples with oranges is completely relevant to pricing. Some peoples pricing that is unbelievably low should not be compared with a price that involves all pres materials and techniques.

I'm sure I read that people had calculated the price of "The Job". Without the exact details of materials used and techniques used, a comparison price is really, totally useless and a waste of time and space on this forum.
If we are going to compare pricing of anything, it has to be based on using specific materials and techniques and sizes so that everyone is pricing the exact same thing!

[Roboframer]

Fairy Nuff!

I don't think I have a piccy of a sports shirt, but if you have and spill the spec - cost per ft of the moulding etc etc I'l post a comparison price.

[Underpinner]

I don't remember receiving the case of Champagne in return for posting the most viewed topic (?) on the site! Ah well, press on...

As Osgood says quite correctly, "How much" does indeed depend on "How to", but let's not get into the "How to" too much in this topic. There are other places on the forum to talk about how to and, when I started this topic, I stated the "How to" very clearly so that anyone replying had only to give a price for a frame, just as they would to any customer. I would suggest that what we are concerned with here is a simple price comparison.

It is difficult to make comparisons with prices from overseas framers because,while we can work out exchange rates, most UK framers will not be aware of the costs of overheads and materials in places such as Australia and the USA.

Some of the UK prices quoted have been surprising. I hope that this discussion has been beneficial to those who clearly needed to bite the bullet and, having reviewed their costs, revise their pricing.

Just a few randon thoughts. An old friend of my family (who was very much respected by all who knew him, yet who still became quite wealthy by his latter years), used to have a saying which (adapted for our business ) went something like this: "A framer who charges nothing is worth nothing". In this spirit, I have never believed in charging the minimum that I could manage, for fear of the opposition. Any fool can work for nothing. Around 35-40 years ago I ran a small business in central London. I knew that I was good at my work (without being b..... arrogant) and I took a pride in giving my customers the best possible results - and for these reasons I made a point of charging MORE that any local opposition. I was never short of work. I don't know whether I charge more than other framers in this county, but I don't work for peanuts...

[Roboframer]

I don't remember receiving the case of Champagne in return for posting the most viewed topic (?)

Well don't go getting visions of grandeur there will you!

23,300 views in not far off 3 years on a relatively slow-moving forum.

(The topic is visible on the first page - on TFG for example it would be WAY back in the archives)

Working on percentages try this - my topic 'Thinking Out Loud' Posted 5 weeks ago has 10,132 views and rising.

and I took a pride in giving my customers the best possible results - and for these reasons I made a point of charging MORE that any local opposition.

Well that would not work for everyone. Knowing what the competitiion charge is a must if it's close enough to worry you, so is knowing what standards they frame to.

But being the best in the area does not have to mean you are the most expensive, in fact I'd say that is a bad business attitude.

[Framing Norah]

I don't remember receiving the case of Champagne in return for posting the most viewed topic (?) on the site! Ah well, press on...

Congratulations John!

But don't just rest on your laurels though, why be satisfied with one popular thread, start a few more?

[Underpinner]

Roboframer is quite right, so perhaps he should have the Champagne. After all, look at that posting rate - almost ten per week since he joined back in February - surely the highest weekly average on this forum.

And he is right again about my bad business attitude: Fancy trying to maximise my profit (ie. wages) within the limits of what my local market will pay for my services! What a way to run a business!

Thanks Framing Norah. No doubt I will start more threads when I have something to say. Mind you, this was not the only one I started - and again a lot of viewers were attracted - in relation to the number of members of this forum a couple of years ago (only a couple of dozen if I remember correctly). So a controversial topic or two might well have helped to attract more viewers/members to our ranks to make the forum the success it has become.

And I reserve the right to be a bit light-hearted accasionally even if it runs the risk of being misinterpreted.

[markw]

Underpinner - surely the number of views is irrelevant - the real meausure of the subject is the number of posts - lots of people viewing and not commenting only indicates that they are not engaged enough to bother commenting. If you combine Roboframers posting here and on the Grumble together he must have worn out a couple of keyboards by now - he's probably responsible for half the viewing figures as well.

[Underpinner]

Hey, lighten up a bit! It was only a thowaway remark - a light-hearted way to start my reply.

You may well be correct though I don't think you are taking into consideration the size of this forum 33 months ago and how keen we all were to find more members.

Anyway, that is as far off topic as I propose to go.

[Roboframer]

Roboframer .... look at that posting rate - almost ten per week since he joined back in February - surely the highest weekly average on this forum

I didn't realise I posted so little - I must get a grip.

Seems most Grumbling, on the Grumble, goes on during work hours!

That's one thing I could never ever do - I'm, er ... WORKING!!!

Some American framers may charge more than us (but I still believe they simply sell more expensive frames to a richer market - not charge more of a mark up across the board) but most are not as busy as us, less people per per square mile and more competition in more condensed areas.

What was this topic about again?

Anyone see the match last night?

[WelshFramer]

I started trading a year ago and have only just started to keep proper books. I bought a copy of MYOB Accounts and spent 2 weeks setting it up and entering all the transactions for the past 12 months (plus searching out all the invoices for capital equipment bought before that date).

Anyway, to the point. I generally cost framing by adding up the cost of materials and then adding a markup of around twice that much with a discount for trade custmers. I haven't a clue whether or not that's an appropraite markup but it was a suggested method on one of the framing courses I attended.

I'm hoping that now I'm using an accounting package I'll be able to monitor costs and income and determine the appropriateness of the method. MYOB allows me to add a markup to each moulding or mountboard, etc and I always round up to the nearest 1/4 length or sheet.

One effect of this method is that small frames don't make much profit but large ones do - but the prices do seem to reflect what the customer expects.

At least, that's my story for straightforward jobs. Any comments on the appropriateness of themethod.

[absolute framing]

Hi Mike

"One effect of this method is that small frames don't make much profit but large ones do - but the prices do seem to reflect what the customer expects"

On the above quote

I find that the labour involved in a small frame is nearly the same as a large one - Cut four sides - underpin - cut glass/mounts/b. board - fit all

We charge a min labour price for each frame - mount - glass - B. Board - Hinging : before materials +mark up.

ie ; frame=6 mount = 1 glass = 1 B.bd = 1 Hinging = 1 in Euro

Hope this is of some help

stephen