The Framers Forum

Evening Forum,
Interested to know your thoughts and processes in quoting for clients. For example, when ordering moulding do you charge the client for what they use (according to their measurements plus 20 percent for the natural wastage) or do you charge for what you have to order on the basis that if you have to order in metre lengths, you are unlikely to use that small amount left over for another project - what do you all think about this and generally on working out costs? Thanks!

pfbls,
I guess it all depends on the amount you need to buy. If you need to buy 10 or 20 or 30 metres, then you will try to sell the remainder asap. I would charge for the moulding used plus 20%-30% wastage in that case.

If you have to buy two 3m lengths and you use only 4 metres, then I would charge the customer for all 6 metres. Otherwise you will pay for 2 mtrs and may never get anything back for it. It's not wise business to buy something knowing that you are unlikely to ever get your money back.

The short answer to that pfbls is that it depends on whether I have ordered the moulding in specially for them or not.

So if it is a normal stock moulding, I will base my charges on how much I have used on their behalf, taking into account at least 30% wastage.

If they have asked me to order in, then I will take the amount I have spent getting it in for them.

The long answer is, I will be running some pricing seminars for framers over the next few months where I will spend 2 hours or more outlining a comprehensive pricing strategy that will ensure profitability.

Details to follow . . .

I wish I could come to your seminar, Jim!

Ormond,

Nothing to stop you coming
You go to a place called Brisbane airport and get on a thing called a plane

Another alternative is for Jim to come to you

I'm feeling frivolous this morning

I agree with both Jim and Ormond. If it is a stock moulding or one you are likely to use then just cost out using wastage. However if it is moulding that is bought in especially then base the moulding cost on what was used. I recently did to very large square frames which I needed four lengths for each frame. I costed it out on that basis and it was about 50% more expensive than what my framing program had calculated, so it shows in some cases you have to cost out exactly what you use (or not use).

I also use this method when pricing up commercial jobs. If I have say 50 frames all the same I will work out exactly how many lengths of moulding I use, how many mounts you can get out of a board and do the same with the back and glass. This actually gives the most accurate method of calculating price so that I know exactly what profit I am making on it. It also allows me to be more competitive as a framing program will use a standard wastage on glass back moulding mount etc which may not actually reflect what is actually wasted. This doesn't mean that I will charge any less, it just means i can control haw much profit I make more accurately and see if I have to give discount away how much I can afford. Also the flip to this is if I have to compete on price I can see whether a job is worth it or not.

Cheers

Assuming you are a new starter to this business I would advise using a supplier who will supply you by the length rather than making you take packs of 4/6/8 lengths. That way you are only buying what you need for individual jobs but you do need to keep an eye on what each job will need e.g. a job requiring 3.5 metres will generally mean you have to buy two 3 metre lengths so price it to include the potential waste.

After a while you will find what mouldings sell well and you are confident in selling so then you can move on to buying packs, taking discount for buying larger quantity etc.

There is a branch of Wessex Pictures near you so if you are not already using them I would talk to them and they will also deliver.

Good point Jonny. I remember when I started out we took in two lengths of about 50 mouldings most of which never got used. Because framing is very personal and varies from place to place take a few mouldings which perhaps you like and seem well price pointed, then listen to your customers. Remember you won't have to take loads of moulding into stock wholesalers will gladly give you samples. However be careful not to have to greater range as you will end up with a lot of half lengths of moulding and also spend all your life trying to help customers to make a decision. Same goes for mount board don't show every shade of white/cream/off white under the sun. Some wholesalers have their own range of 'core colours' which is a good starting point.

Good Luck

Sometimes you get a job that needs an expensive moulding that you have to order especially. For a wide moulding on a 20x30 frame, you are going to need two lengths. That means you are left with maybe 7ft. It may cost £7+ a foot. On paper, it's worth about £50. But in the future, if you do get another order for the same moulding and you buy another length, the new lot will most likely be a different batch and not match the bit you have. Typically, the more expensive the moulding. the more the batches vary. So in these cases you need to account for the cost of the full two lengths.

If you have a retail outlet, rather than keep the spare bit in the corner for 10 years, chop it into as big a frame as you can manage and bung a mirror in it.

Regarding mount colours, I stock a few whites, cream and ivory in conservation grade board. Plus standard whitecore black.On my market stall I have a Daler mount colour chart and on it I have marked the reds/greens/blues etc which are available in single sheets at the local art shop. These are the only colours I offer unless I am due to make an order. Unfortunately it's all cream core but the back of it gets lined with P90 up to the bevel and the back mount is always conservation. I wish I lived near a supplier where I could pick up single sheets at a time.

I am like henry ford you can have any colour as long as its Hayseed. mind you you can have it in 3500micron and 1400micron.

I kind of do the same with mouldings actually, most of my clients get black, and a particluar one too

Me to. Its amazing how arqadia 408167000 or 337167000 goes round most things. Mind you it looks good with a deep bevel mount in hayseed. Sometimes I use the mahogany one as well

Can you buy chops in UK?
I buy quite a few mouldings as chops, because I'm not wealthy enough to stock every moulding that's available. It means there is no waste, but you do pay a little more for that advantage. I find it's a great way to be able to supply a wider range of mouldings.

Good point Ormond, yes we do have chop service with arqadia and others. This would probably work out cheaper than taking stock of a moulding you will never use in a month of sundays.

I agree a chop would be the best bet. In the past if a customer has asked for a non-stock moulding I would charge them for what amount of lengths are required and any spare moulding would be given over to the customer so as not to corrupt our workshop any further with off-cuts!! The general advantage with this is that inevitably the customer will find something else to frame using the spare moulding thus a bit of extra work will come your way too.

I am always amazed that people establish a business before they fully understand how it will work. Surely one of the basics is to know your costs - understand the profit margin needed to survive and prosper - then think about starting the business. We work in a competitive market place and as a business you need to be able to buy your materials from a trade supplier at a trade rate. If your buying the odd board - stick of moulding you are going to find it hard to compete.

A local artist brought some work into me with oak frames on them - she wasn't pleased with the standard of workmanship on the frames - open joints etc. I gave her a price to make them and she replied that her present framer was charging less than half my quoted price. I knew we both got the moulding from the same supplier and would have almost certainly paid the same amount for it. This framer wasn't charging enough to cover the cost of materials let alone make a profit. Suprise - he's no longer trading. I knew that a local art group were using this framer at the time because he was so cheap. Good business is based upon profit not turnover.

Chop is the best way to offer your customers a good range of mouldings - yet not keep a big range of stock. Chop is more expensive - and if you order one chop at a time you also get saddled with delivery costs - order 4 or 5 and generally the delivery is FOC. If your buying moulding in one stick at a time I suspect you wont notice the extra cost of chop as you are probably paying top whack for your moulding anyway. You can always buy in stick for that multiple order - but then you will be buying packs - at a better rate.

Well said. So many people come into this industry on a part time / hobby basis, which i suppose is no bad thing. Unfortunately what many don't realise is that they may well not be charging enough and when they go full time and rent premises they can't make enough money and when they put up their prices in an attempt save the business they lose all their faithful customers.

Doing your homework is paramount to any business, seeing if it will bring you the income you need. To many businesses judge their success by footfall and turnover and get a shock at the end of the year when the accountant tells them the books don't balance na dthey have actully made a loss.

Cheers

AG