A sticky problem!

Not your average framer · Sat 01 Jul, 2006 9:16 pm

A senior gentleman brought in a photographic image of a nearby coastal town to be framered. He chose a mount and a simple frame and I told him the price. He looked shocked and told me he only paid £5 for the image. So I offered to do it as a ready made frame instead for 25% less, this is a standard deal we do - No fitting, no stringing and 25% off. He also decided not to have the mount.

Should be a nice easy, no hassle, quick job! Boy was I wrong! The image was supplied in one of those clear polypropylene bags with a self adhesive flap. It was a hot day, I was tired and also trying to explain to my framing assistant how to do some things he had not done before and taking the image out of the bag at the same time. Somehow the self adhesive strip got stuck to the front of the photo, Oh! $#!%. A quick inspection revealed that the photo was in fact an ink jet job on epsom paper and the flap was very well stuck to it!

To make it look right, it has been dry mounted and heatsealed with 180 grade abrasive paper on top of the heatseal film to create a bit of texture to hide the (fortunately) clear residual adhesive and a free of charge mount and non reflective glass over the top to complete concealment of the adhesive residue. Amazingly, it looks fine, but the customer who is coming in, probably on Monday has to decide between accepting it as it is or me paying him the cost of a new print and the cost of going to get it. I am hoping the added mount, N/R glass plus fitting and stringing will help persuade him. He's a nice chap and I don't expect him to be bothered about it - I don't think it is visible at all. This job took hours to correct and I made nothing from doing it at all!

What have I learnt from this? In future I will give the customer the option of removing it from the bag himself or I will cut the flap off and discard it before removing it from the bag myself
Cheers,
Mark

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 01 Jul, 2006 9:26 pm

Bin there, done that! (we do a similar deal for a ready-made-to-order too, but we take off a fitting charge

Slit the bag at the wrong end and slide it out that way.

Post by **John** » Sat 01 Jul, 2006 9:54 pm

You are in good company Mark, I expect we all have had similar experiences. I always try to get the customer to open their own packages, though it can come across as rude and unhelpful if not done just right.

I see that Epson, in their packs of photo paper, are putting the adhesive strip along the top of the envelope rather than on the flap. I expect it is to avoid this type of problem. It should be the standard for these clear plastic self-seal envelopes.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sun 02 Jul, 2006 12:57 am

Mark,

Could you please explain how this ready made, custom framing deal works? I don't understand if you are making a frame to suit the artwork or you just have a stock of cheaper frames to choose from and whether you or the customer does the fitting and the "stringing"?

Also what is "stringing"? I'm not familiar with that term.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 02 Jul, 2006 10:21 am

Hi Ormond,

Customer chooses frame, mount etc and then says "Oh I wasn't expecting to pay that much..... " etc etc etc.

So you can do the usual things, downgrade the moulding, reduce the mount width etc etc.

OR you can do exactly the same job but the customer fits his own art in and sorts out his own flumbs, sealing the back (or if he can't ne arsed to do any of that and uses masking tape to fit the art - FINE!)

The job will cost more than a ready made frame and you have saved more in time than you are discounting it.

"Stringing" = fastening cord/wire.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sun 02 Jul, 2006 11:20 am

Thanks John.
It's probably not something I would do because usually it would take as much time to explain to the customer how to do the fitting as it does to actually do it.
If someone is not prepared to pay my normal price I would first explain what they are getting for the money, show them the difference, and then if they still won't pay that price I would reduce the price by changing materials, size of mats, etc. This would normally reduce the price by 25% anyway.

Mark says his original price is reduced by 25% by the customer doing the fitting, etc. Pricing is obviously quite different up there, because that seems a very large amount for fitting to me. My fitting charge would be no more than 10% on most jobs.

"flumbs".........struth, why don't the English speak english????? ;o)) ;o))

markw · Post by **markw** » Sun 02 Jul, 2006 1:41 pm

I am sure we have all done something similar. I make sure that all work is out of the bag in front of the customer - amazing how much crap you notice at this point - its carefully logged and customer made aware - artwork put straight into large plan chest so that customer is reassured that we are careful. I do it that way because I have been caught out in the past - sticky bags - marks on artwork etc.

As for discounting - why - they are never going to be good customers. I only discount on big orders and even then I would rather offer extras free of charge.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 02 Jul, 2006 2:13 pm

Ormond,

I thought 'Flumb' was international speak for foriegn bodies that appear in the frame after checking (and checking) - you never see them until it is all sealed up. Anyway, I'm not English - I'm Welsh - or, when England are winning something - British! (Usually Welsh then

)

As for the ready-made-to-order I only do it for photos etc - the customer does whatever s/he does if s/he were to buy a ready-made off the shelf, I start by askiing 'Would you be happy to fit the photo (etc) in place yourself?' If not I don't take it any further, because they do indeed end up wanting a mini framing course sometimes.

It's then quicker than pulling a shedload of more options out of the bag and ending up with something you are ashamed to put stamp (label) on.

I have a small army of ready-made-to-order customers and when I can knock out frame, mount, backing, glass - make some holes for 'D' rings, staple 'D' rings, screws and cord to frame in bag - job done in 15 min tops - I love 'em! If one customer wants a decent quantity of the same size I'll deduct 20% plus the fitting charge too (my usual RMF Formula)

Not your average framer · Mon 03 Jul, 2006 11:04 pm

The 25% off as a ready made with flexi-tabs instead of doing the full job as normal, is something I learnt from working for a well known Torquay framers. They do it all the time! It saves losing a deal, lots of people go for it, because they think it's a big saving.

This is what they don't get:

I don't fit their art into the frame!
I don't clean the glass - just wipe it over with a dry cloth!
I don't tape up the back!
I don't fit or supply D-rings - just two screw eyes taped to the back!
I don't string it to hang!
I don't put my label on the frame!
The discount does not apply to mount cutting - That's still full price!

The moulding in this case was one from a frinton mouldings bargain bundle - 75 metres of slightly reject mouldings for £25 + VAT. It works out at about 10 pence a foot - customers pay the normal price, thank you! These often have minor defects to chop out, but it's never a big deal! Unfortunately, Frintons have sold the last of these at present, but I made sure I've got plenty in stock.

In fact, I've bought large quantities of mouldings from framers closing down too! If the price and the quality are good you can't go wrong. As long as it's not rubbish, you can move almost anything as ready made frames. I've got a laser printer and some vanilla coloured paper to print the inserts for them - the size and price are boldly printed which helps. Sales are quite difficult to predict, right now is a bit slow, but there are times when I can't do enough. I also use good quality bargain buys for normal work too!

The gentleman who's framing this was, came in today and was told exactly what had happened and he was still delighted with the framing. He says he got some more work for me too!

I would like to clarify that the photo came in the offending bag, I would never use such things.
Cheers,
Mark

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Mon 03 Jul, 2006 11:16 pm

Not your average framer wrote:The 25% off as a ready made with flexi-tabs
This is what they don't get:

I don't fit their art into the frame!
I don't clean the glass - just wipe it over with a dry cloth!
I don't tape up the back!
I don't fit or supply D-rings - just two screw eyes taped to the back!
I don't string it to hang!
I don't put my label on the frame!

Those are the items that I include in my "fitting" charge and my fitting charge actually averages at 10-12% of the price. I could not give 25% off for just not doing those things.

"screw eyes" are a pet hate of mine....I dislike them so much I wouldn't even give them away for free to my proverbial "worst enemy"

Just goes to show that we all do things differently! Very interesting topic!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 04 Jul, 2006 7:11 pm

This IS interesting innit!

Fitting charges are useful things, for adding on or taking off, we use fitting charges ad-lib, for example for people taking too long to choose we'll apply a 15 minute rule, IOW the first 15 mins is free, at 30 mins I add a fitting charge, then another for every further 15 mins - it's flexible. Something strange comes in - a bit of a project? We'll calculate the basic frame charge plus any add ons that we already cater for, then we'll look at what is left to do, make an estimate and add 4/5/ whatever fitting charges.

Someone wants to take a picture out of their old frame and put a new one in? Well that's an UNfitting charge, plus a fitting charge.

Screw eyes/rings? SCREW 'em - hate 'em!!!

Not your average framer · Tue 04 Jul, 2006 10:05 pm

I hate screw eyes too, but my original stock which I bought from a business which was closing down includes more screw eyes than you would ever believe, so they cost me nothing and it's good P.R.
Cheers,
Mark

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Tue 04 Jul, 2006 10:17 pm

Not your average framer wrote:I hate screw eyes too,.....................they cost me nothing and it's good P.R.
Cheers,
Mark

Mark,
In my humble opinion it would be a punishment or bad P.R. to give a customer something I hated and is last century, poor technology!

I'm afraid I would have to go the whole hog and give them two dee rings and two screws and a piece of Supersoftstrand wire and just live with the 35 cents it costs me!

Not your average framer · Tue 04 Jul, 2006 10:58 pm

Osgood,

The point is that a ready made frame and proper framing job are not the same and I want people to realise that it's worth paying the extra for a better job. Sure I could give them D-rings, but I want them to think seriously about paying the extra next time!
Cheers,
Mark

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 04 Jul, 2006 11:15 pm

Screw rings have their uses - photo to follow tomorrow!

(small print

(1) If I remember to take my camera in.

(2) If I can find a screw ring)

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 05 Jul, 2006 7:56 pm

I remembered but didn't get round to the photo I wanted.

It's to do with box frames, so I'll start a new topic with what I have so far.

(Edit - maybe tomorrow - photos are garbage!)