Cross pinning...???

[dnaframing]

Hi everyone!

I've been framing for a good few years but have only just started using a very thin profile, deep rebate ash moulding (A140 from Rose & Hollis) and have been experiencing problems. (btw: I did try the oak version of this frame also but have found it unworkable since it is too hard and wedges always split through the side of the frame) The mitred corner provides very little wood surface area to glue and because the frame is so thin I can only get a 1cm wedge in the back (only 1 of them too) in case they split out the side of the moulding. Currently I am glueing and clamping with a band clamp prior to underpinning, then filling and sanding corners before finishing treatment if required. But the corners end up separating slightly, especially on larger frames. The glue (evo-for wood) seems to have little effect.

I have a suspicion I may need to cross pin them at the top of the frame's corners, but have never done this before. Am I right in thinking I would need to drill a pilot hole and then drive a panel pin in? Any technical advice would be much appreciated ie nail & drill bit sizes, how to secure frame when nailing and what order to do everything in for best results.

Many thanks in advance for any help and advice,

Daniel.

[MITREMAN]

Hi dnaframing,

Underpinner Oak & Ash
Keep your wedges more to the front of the joint to avoid them coming out the backs.
Use Tite-bond glue this is far better than normal pva and if you try to take it apart the fibres of the wood will rip before the joint gives.
When using the underpinner make sure you have hard wood wedges and a hard wood bung depending on your underpinner make.
You can always pin the tops by using fine hardwood pins, to do this use a drill like a dremmal with a small chuck and cut the head of a pin and use that as a drill bit (if your chuck will not go down that small, wrap a little masking tape (yes i did say masking tape....)round it before putting it in the chuck.
Drill the hole, insert a pin, tap till almost in, then centre punch home.
Fill the hole with an Ameco nail hole filler (this is a clay based filler and will not shrink and full out)of a matching colour, sand over it with flour paper(fine Sandpaper)the dust will collect on top of the filler and your nail hole will not be visable.

Hope this Helps
Mitreman

[dnaframing]

Thanks Mitreman

I am using a cassesse underpinner with hardwood 10mm wedges, hardwood (black) bung and inserting wedges close to the internal edge of the mitred join, but sometimes they still come out the backs, (always with the oak). The width of the moulding I am using is very small, approx 10mm. Do you think my Cassesse could be mis-firing my wedges at an incorrect angle?

Anyway - I will definitely try the Titebond glue you mentioned (which type do you use - there are a few different types) and the cross pinning method you described (I'll need to acquire a Dremel drill) and hope for more structurally sound results!

Thanks again, Daniel.

[jamiesuds]

We just use our cordless drill/screwdriver and a tiny nail for the drill bit, or you can buy tiny drill bits fixed into a hex type head to fit cordless screwdrivers but pricy when they keep breaking. The glue called Mitre Tite works a treat, loads of other folk make it too under a different name, it's a type of super glue with an activating spray, you spray one mitre and squirt the super glue on the other and once pressed together harden in seconds, but bigger frames are a little fragile if knocked hence the use for a cross pin.

Alternatively, if you are using a lot of these narrow oaks then buy a pneumatic nail gun and join the frame with the glue and a 7mm wedge then simply fire a nail through the top and bottom sides of the frame and fill. We use this method when doing a lot of Very deep (10cm) but narrow box frames.

[Steve N]

If you can't find a drill bit the right size for the pin, cut the head of a pin off, put the pin in your drill and use that to drill your hole, it's the right size.

[Tudor Rose]

We used to use that moulding from Rose & Hollis and we also had problems with it.

Our solution was.......


...... to find another moulding, bit thicker that didn't give us problems! Far less hassle and saves hours of frustration and mucking about.

[prospero]

On something like that moulding I would use epoxy resin. The slow setting type - the 5 mins stuff is more brittle when cured. (Blue tube Araldite - not Red) Butter all the joins - put a 7 mm wedge in each corner just to keep the joins aligned - throw a strap clamp round, leaving a bit of space near the top. Then cross nail it. Leave in the clamp overnight if poss. That's about as strong as it's ever going to be.

One thing about unfinished ash/oak is that it's relatively easy to fill the nailholes and they don't look too obtrusive when sanded down and a coat of varnish/wax applied over.

[framemaker]

I use a Dremel with suitable sized drill bit, joining on the underpinner with a 7 or 10mm wedge, then clamping, drilling, and cross pinning. Set the nail with a punch and then fill. I use Titebond 3 or PU glue.
On some ultra thin mouldings I have used a traditional mitre vice and cross pinned top and bottom, making two L's and then joining these together.

[David]

There's nothing wrong with the underpinner, it's a common situation with hard woods, used to get it with ramin and even had it with pine. I'd follow the excellent advice above.

[dnaframing]

Great...thanks very much for all the helpful advice. Today I experimented by drilling a panel pin into a pilot hole which seemed to work well. I will also test out all the glues mentioned.
Thanks again, Daniel.

[Not your average framer]

Cascamite is another really good strong wood glue which I use when I need something really strong and durable.