The Framers Forum

I would appreciate some explanation/confirmation, if possible please.
I have noted that it is possible to purchase V nails/wedges for hardwood and for softwood.
I presume this refers to the density of a particular material, rather than whether it is genetically a hardwood or a softwood.
Ramin, for instance, is a west African mahogany, as are obeche and balsa wood: each genetically hardwoods; each progressively softer as to density.
Many pines are relatively hard as to density; but all pines are gentically softwoods.

Is it down to the experience of the framer to determine which timbers require which designation of V nail/wedge?
Or are framing materials grouped with reference to their density/relative hardness?
And if so, how are the groups identified?

TIA
Jack

Through my experience so far (less than two years) with five different types of wood, I would group them as follows:

Pine & Obeche are soft woods and cut & join easily and should be pinned with the Normal wedges. Oak, Ash and Beech are hard woods and cut and join with a bit more effort and should be pinned with the Hard wedges.

Because hard woods can be difficult with underpinning, particularly with a foot operated underpinnner, I would only use a maximum size of 10mm hard wedges, and never try to stack them

To keep my Morso blades happy I prefer to cut oak and ash with a hand mitre saw and trim on the Morso

I would say it is down to how physically hard the wood is as to whether you use hard or normal wedges.

Thank you David: and for the designations too. Much appreciated

And I guess the next question is:-
Is there any reason why I may not use wedges designated as for 'hardwood', in soft timbers, (ramin, obeche etc)??
So far as I can see - Mainline do Cassese AL 'hardwood' wedges at £3 per 8k box cheaper than their Cassese UNI 'softwood' wedges.
(the red box as opposed to the white box)

Not if you want to stack them they don't stack very well.

Ah. Thank you. There's usually a good reason why it's too good to be true, isn't there?

As you pointed out Jack, some hard woods are softwoods and some soft woods are hardwoods.

In framing/wedge terms use 'hardwood' wedges for oak and ash. Everything else, use 'softwood' wedges (heretofore known as 'ordinary wedges'.

Ordinary wedges are slightly flared to they pull the faces together as they penetrate. Oak and ash, being denser don't have the same 'give', so if you use ordinary wedges there is a tendency for the wedge to tear down the middle. Hardwood wedges are straight so they don't pull the joint together in the same way, but they really don't need to.
As AG said - it's not easy to stack wedges of any kind in oak/ash. Safer to put a shallow wedge in just to hold the joint in alignment and then drill/crossnail nearer the top.

Ramin was a favourite wood for moulding at one time. (If I can be pedantic, if comes from SE Asia. ). A few years ago exports were severely restricted and I think I'm right in saying it can only be exported in actual moulding form - not as timber planks. There are a few plain sections on the market still. Shame really, as it was almost the ideal wood for framing. Not as hard as oak/ash and more even grained.

Thank you Prospero. That's great.
And this morning I have found out that my local supplier (TawnyCraft) stock Cassese Uni wedges, so there is no need to look further

Ramin .... it comes from SE Asia.

I stand corrected.
Much appreciated

Prospero
I was wondering if you could tell us newbies the correct method for crossnailing? (In easy to understand terms please )
Thanks!
Calico

Well pre-80's all frames were cross nailed. And even well into the 80's underpinners were only just creeping in as the standard method of joining.

Nothing technical - it's just hammer and nails.

Basically, you have to get the joint glued and clamped. The good old Stanley mitre vice was a fav framers tool. Then drill pilot holes in the corners and put panel pins in. You have to stagger the holes so that the nails don't hit each other. And pay heed to were they go. Some mitres are quite deceptive and you can end up coming out the face on deep scoops.

One tip is to not tap one nail in fully until you start the second. That way you don't risk misaligning the join by hammering. And you need to practice with a hammer lest it should slip and ding the frame. Knock it in nearly flush and then use a centrepunch to slightly set it under the surface.


Then of course you have to make good the nail holes.

Not much point though David, if you have an underpinner!

But you would still need to cross-nail on a very deep section, wouldn't you?
BTW, without attempting to take liberties, I would suggest using a fine flat-ended nail punch to recess your pin heads. A centre-punch is ground to a point and slips off the pin head very easily, doubling the size of the hole to be filled.
The first frames I ever made (as an apprentice) in 1963, were for the city council offices.
The spec said "no nail holes in the perimeter of the frame."
So I had to cut 'bowties' out of ash, then cut dovetail pockets on the rear of each of the mitre faces.
I wasn't even allowed to pin the 'bowties' into the pockets.
"If yer've cut um proper lad, they'll not need nails"

As an aside; what does everyone use to fill pin head holes or slight damage to the visible faces of a frame?
Is Brummer OK? That's all there was in the 60's. Oh, and lurgh. (glue and the material dust)

That's a good point about deep profiles particularly with hardwoods where stacking wedges is not a good idea. Nothing better than banging a few nails into a frame to make you feel like you’ve done a right proper job.... speaking of which I know what I’m drinking before me tea!!!

These sticks are good for filling nail holes

http://www.jpennyltd.co.uk/shopping/pgm ... .php?id=51

I do like to see a proper job done
I've not tried Liberon sticks - seen it, but not tried it. I'll have to Thank you