How to handle the difficult job?

Keith Hewitt · Post by **Keith Hewitt** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 7:29 am

I saw a notice in a frame shop last week, telling customers that they would be charged extra if the job were difficult, and thought ..all framers must be in the same boat at sometime.....what to quote when you are not sure how long a difficult job might take.

I'm interested to hear what other framers views and opinions are on this subject.

Keith Hewitt

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 8:51 am

That will really put a potential customer off !

We all get difficult jobs amongst the easier ones; it's a mix. To a good framer these jobs are not difficult.
Experience will tell you roughly how long something will take and add on a charge you are satisfied covers it. Usual thing 'not an exact science'.

Last thing we would put in our window.

Image blew me away Keith.

JFeig · Post by **JFeig** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 2:26 pm

One thing to remember is that after making a ESTIMATE as to the charges for a job, If at all possible keep that estimate as the final charge to the client. In most cases you will be fairly close. The "bad will" of raising your price is more costly that the list income.

Remember that you will always make a better profit on some jobs that others.... "you win some ... and loose some"

norymags · Post by **norymags** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 4:18 pm

That kind of advert in anyones window for whatever reason (or excuse) raises all kinds of issues.

From a customers point, How can I get this job done without being overcharged?

Can I be sure that I am not being ripped off?

And most importantly of all am I getting value for money?

If I was having a problem and I was to explain to the customer that there was a greater degree of difficulty attached to the job, then I am sure the customer would agree to a further charge, but there`s no hope if we stick a wee notice in the window just to explain it away....Norrie

uniqueframer · Post by **uniqueframer** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 7:22 pm

As a customer seeing that sign I would also think is this a tradesman or some diy'er who is chancing his arm. because he has not got a clue on how to do the job but will suck it and see

And in it is so true what others have said some you win and some you dont. as long as you win more than you dont why worry

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 9:41 pm

It made me smile

It would probably make me smile if I were a customer at the framers, but maybe not if I wasn't already in a similar business.

I think we used to have one which read "complaints dept: OK you dont like it, you have had your money back, please come in and kick my dog, burn my shop down, key my car, and watch while I hang myself. If none of the above meet your requirements, kindly **** off"
It lasted thre weeks while Mrs Kev and the dangerous brothers were on a cruise, and swiftly vanished when she came back to work.

The staff thought that "kindly" made it a bit flowery.

Im currently looking for a plastic handgrenade to affix a tag to saying "complaints dept, please take a ticket...."

On a more serious note, I've found that the degree of difficulty in a job is directly proportional to how long you put it off. And sometimes three brains are better than one when it comes to tackling a challenging one.

Not your average framer · Mon 22 Jan, 2007 9:50 pm

I always quote a price for the job, and believe that my quote should be adhered to. Customers need to know what they will have to pay before committing themselves. It's a simple matter of professionalism and fair play. It also gets you repeat business too!

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 10:07 pm

Not your average framer wrote:I always quote a price for the job, and believe that my quote should be adhered to. Customers need to know what they will have to pay before committing themselves. It's a simple matter of professionalism and fair play. It also gets you repeat business too!

likewise we always tell them upfront, although its surprising how many regular customers just leave it and say "its up to you, you know what I like".

Apart from one on saturday..... Mrs Kev had someone in in late december who just had to have it for christmas. She was quoted £40. "oh no, says Mrs Tightwad, "thats far too much, ****** down the road says its £30"

This was met with the usual "take it down the road then, but I think you'll find they cant do it for christmas" Down the road, they promise much, but deliver little. we lost count how many people come to us having taken work back from them that they have been waiting several weeks for. This is a place that bases its prices on "how much did the others want, we'll beat it".

Guess who turns up today. Yes, Mrs Tightwad. ****** down the road obviously couldn't do it for christmas, and our price had mysteriously gone up past £50.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 11:47 pm

Well, if this framer was anywhere near me I'd put a few 'difficult' jobs in the window - football shirts, see both sides etc with a sign saying 'Bring it on, baby' (IOW of course!)

Signs like this are very negative and I've seen them in other frame shops too - "If you do this and that then we will do this and the other"

"If you don't do this and that, then we will do this and the other"

I think the best was "We will not give quotes for framing unless you bring in the item you require framed" So how does that work? "Oooh look at all these nice pictures, I really like how they frame things, I could get my degree framed like that, wonder how much, let's find out ...... oh dear, look, I need to nip home and get it .......NOT!"

Lost sale pal!

Dunno if you saw the January sale for Moben Kitchens - 50% off - all over the TV and the papers - we went to homebase - where there is a Moben (etc) franchise - we're up for a dream kitchen - fell in love with one - knew it would be expensive - asked 'how much'

"Oh - we don't do prices"

"Eh?"

"No - we make an appointment for one of our reps to call (didn't use the word 'reps' - something posh, way over my head) and he will discuss options for a kitchen design, custom made for your space"

"Oh - OK - so, say our kitchen is EXACTLY the size of your show space, THIS, what I am looking at right in front of me, arranged JUST like this, to this EXACT specification - how much?"

"Well, it would depend on ......"

"NO - no - it would not - THIS here is perfect, you just fited THIS, for me .... ballpark would be fine - just an idea - if it's within budget your rep can call, if not, we wouldn't want to waste his time...."

"Well no two are the same"

("AAAAAGGGHH")

"So - Let's say I go for it, your rep calls and gives me a price - how do I know that price is half price?"

Needless to say we shopped around, found many willing to give quotes, some even guaranteed - we had exact dimensions of the room.

What else do we need to give an accurate quote bar exact dimensions?

Not exact? Fine - we'll give an estimate.

When some customers come in and ask 'how much to frame something THIS big' I rub my thumb against my first two fingers and say 'This Much!"

patrickleeland · Post by **patrickleeland** » Thu 25 Jan, 2007 4:25 am

I tend to agree with the other posters. This is poor. It makes a customer think you do shoddy work or do not stand behind your product. Framing can be hard, but if it wasn't everyone would do it. So tell this bloke to suck it up and get to working. Or tell him you will give him a stack of business cards to hand out to the customers with the difficult jobs.

PL

Keith Hewitt · Post by **Keith Hewitt** » Thu 25 Jan, 2007 5:03 am

Patrick

He is a woman!
BTW I only posted this because I was so surprised to see this notice. I was about to tell the lady - thats no way to talk to your customers. But then I thought hang on a minute. She will think "Who does he think he is? Telling me how to run my frame shop!"

Much better I post it here and when it's finished - then I will send her a link and she will probably take the notice down and I hope replace it with one that says " WE WELCOME THE MOST DIFFICULT JOBS" !!

Keith

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Tue 30 Jan, 2007 7:59 pm

re my post 22nd january:

hand grenade courtesy of ebay

realhotglass · Post by **realhotglass** » Tue 30 Jan, 2007 9:29 pm

I feel this framer is just trying to 'prepare' a customer for a possible high value framing quote.

Really though, it certainly doesn't work that well, and it could well be expected better done while designing.
Take the customer through the frame job, the more difficult aspects, make sure they know how well / reversible etc you are going to do their job.

Price often then falls to a very much secondary issue, except for the 'real' budget shoppers.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Tue 30 Jan, 2007 9:56 pm

Mrs Kev tends to always start with the price of a basic frame, and then introduce the price for the box element, and then the "difficulty" (labour) breaking it down into stages so the customer can see why its priced the way it is. Seems to work, even if the price is disagreeable and they dont have the job done, at least they dont go away thinking you were trying it on. Come the end of a busy day/week I can understand how enthusiasm can seep away to be replaced by signs (or grenades)

Its not the customers fault that they dont know how we do the jobs, but usually when you tell them what you are planning on doing they will often offer construcive design suggestions themselves.

Its very very difficult finding good shop staff. Dealing with people is an art. (one which I dont have) Two or three "difficult" customers in a morning and we all want to put up a sign like that.

Underpinner · Post by **Underpinner** » Tue 30 Jan, 2007 10:02 pm

It's unprofessional, ungrammatical and unnecessary.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 30 Jan, 2007 10:11 pm

Kev,

I think we do things basically the same. Our 'basic' frame price includes a single mount, undermount/backing, standard 2mm glass and fitting (incl hardware)

IOW a print, a photo, a watercolour etc.

After that it is broken down - extra mounts, fillets (slips), needlework stretching, making a box, lining said box, disguising said box, fitting 3-D objects into said box, etc etc

I think the sign displayed in the first post is a 'cringe' - displays inconfidence, they are saying some jobs are 'difficult'. ALL jobs are difficult to Joe public, otherwise he'd be down B&Q having a bash himself!

It's like a garage saying "Headlight bulb needs replacing?" Hey - No problem .... "New Clutch? - Aw man, I did one of those once - all the housing bolts were rusted on - sheesh ......"

beth · Post by **beth** » Thu 01 Feb, 2007 3:50 pm

That sign would put me of if I was a customer but excellent for the competition

Keith Hewitt · Post by **Keith Hewitt** » Sat 03 Feb, 2007 5:39 am

SO TELL ME WHAT TO DO NEXT.....

When I first saw the notice I thought "I dont think that is a good idea". I thought at the time that if I say what I think it will not be well recieved. So I just took a photo.

But now about 10 of you have all said "That notice is not a good idea" -
so the big question is what should I do now

Keep quiet and say nowt, and let this slide down and out of sight? Tell the framer and risk the out come?

I'm interested to hear YOUR advice....

Keith

markw · Post by **markw** » Sat 03 Feb, 2007 12:53 pm

I would try Friday afternoon - wear plenty of padding - trainers etc. try and tell them when they dont have any sharp knives close at hand - oh and leave the door open for a quick exit. Good luck

Could you take pictures? - Before - after - in casualty.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sat 03 Feb, 2007 8:01 pm

Keith,

Negative signs or those with any sort of negative connotation are always discouraging to business. I have a friend who had a nursery at one time and he had about 30 signs around the nursery that said "don't do this" and don't do that" etc, etc and his business didn't last because people only went there once!

"Difficulty charge" seems to me to be the weirdest and most unnecessary thing I have heard of for a long long time.

If anyone has been in this industry for more than a few months, they should have an approximate idea how long even difficult tasks should take to complete by making a list of all the processes and giving each one a time in minutes and adding them all up.

If a job is so difficult to estimate the time, then a price range can be given. If that doesn't suit the customer then just give them the highest price in the range as a quote. If it takes longer then just suck it up and it will be a very valuable learning experience.

I don't know how you should suggest to this person that the sign is detrimental to their business, but they certainly do need some education on pricing. It seems to me that they don't have a clue how to price certain jobs and have jumped to the conclusion that a difficulty charge is the answer to their pricing problems. It isn't!!!

I wonder what their feelings would be if they saw the same sign in their motor mechanic's shop when they went in for a mechanical problem? Very negative I think!

Get them to a trade show with a "Pricing" seminar, or failing that get them a book about it!

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