two pleas for help!

[dottad]

Please help, help, help
Question 1: How to you mount a photograph which has no border? I have been using the photo corners on others which works fine.

Question 2: I did a drawing for a friend about three years ago and did another one which she wanted the same moulding. She brought me the old one in to see moulding and the first thing I saw was that the drawing was cockled down one side. She had taken this to a local framer at the time. She asked me to open it up and see if I could fix it - yeh right! The drawing has been stuck down all over onto the backing board and taped over the front of the drawing along the top. The mount, backing board and glass were such a tight fit I had a struggle to get them out without damaging anything.

So the question is, how do I get the drawing off the backing board without damage and if this is possible can the drawing be 'uncockled'. I'm guessing no and no, but one can but hope!

It is bad enough to see such bad workmanship, but even worse, than 'a' I recommended this framer, and 'b' its my artwork.

Needless to say, I will be taking apart all the work that he did for me.

Thank you for your anticipated help once again.

[realhotglass]

50 views ?
Ok, I'll take a stab (although I'm not a framer, but have good ties as a supplier, and had lots of items framed by some very good, and some not so good framers).

Q1. So what's wrong with normal mounting (top hinged, and having the mat over the pic 5mm all round ?
Or hinge it and float if you don't want to lose _ANY_ of the pic ?

Q2. If it wasn't so long ago that the framer should have known better, I'd (tactfully) advise the client to take it back to the other framer, and get them to 'de-assemble' it !
He may have to take it to a conserator (at his expense), but so be it.
Same with the tight fit, that should be a known (and plain common sense) for decades I expect.

If it was framed a looong time ago, then advise the client that it really isn't anyones fault, that it was just the way things were back then when little was known about conservation framing.
Then you might choose to take it to a conservator and reframe (at the clients cost, maybe with a discount from normal).

Hope that helps.

[markw]

Realhotglass has the photo covered - although you could cut the overlap down a bit.

As for removing the artwork - Don't. You need to talk to your customer and either get them to take it back to the previous framer - a paper conservator or accept the risks involved if you do it.

Its interesting that you have used this framer for some years and recommended him - did you ever ask him what materials and methods he used - was he a Guild Commended Framer - in other words, what persuaded you to think that he was a good picture framer? - Don't tell me the answer was, because he was cheap.

A photographer nearby turned framer - I used to do some of his framing and when he went into business he had a habit of telling his customers how expensive I was. He went out of business and I now get to repair his disasters - he was cheap and most of his customers get to understand why.

[dottad]

Thank you Les and Mark W,

To answer your question Mark regarding my recommendations, it was based on not knowing any better - we live and learn. I knew little about the proper way of framing at the time, the guy was recommended to me by someone else (she obviously knew nothing about framing either!) I guess he is quite cheap and to be honest, if you look at his work (face value) it looks good.
What annoys me more than anything is that the information and training is out there in the big wide world and easy to get, so this guy has no excuse for shoddy work.
At least when I'm stuck I ask when I need help and I will certainly be going on a course as soon as I can find the time. I don't know if he is guild commended and by his work I would hope not.

The person who owns the work, is happy for me to try and sort it out. She doesn't want to go back to this guy and is happy for me to try and de-mount it.

Thank you for your help.

[kev@frames]

a conservator/restorer should give you 50 percent off for trade. Thats how it works down 'yer.

You could pass this on as "goodwill" - kill two birds with one stone: abrogate the responsibility to the expert, and save your customer some money. Restoration is as much an art relying on experience and initiative as anything else, and a whole separate skill in its own right. If practical, let an expert do it.....

or advise the customer that cockling is part of the character of many papers, and see how that goes down. they may see it in a new light

or we could move on to making the best of a bad bodge: (make sure the customer knows any risks and that it is not "approved" practice, and there is a risk)

what is it stuck down with? This is the important question, before you try to unmount it.

Maybe the worst of the cockling could be hidden by cropping the image area with a mount?

If you do get it off, maybe dry-mount it or wet mount it?

Its hard to tell without seeing it.

At the end of the day, if the customer can live with the cockling, but cant afford a conservator, then its best to leave it alone and not interfere with it.
If getting it flat at all costs is the paramount thing, above and beyond any other concerns (integrity of the artwork, value etc) and you think you can get it off yourself without damage - then have a go, but DO make sure the customer knows the score if it all goes pear shaped. After all, if they cant live with it as it is, then is there anything to lose? Just a thought.

good luck. You'll get plenty more jobs like this lol.

and now a lot of my collegues are going to come and batter me with sticks for the unprofessional advice

[realhotglass]

The person who owns the work, is happy for me to try and sort it out. She doesn't want to go back to this guy and is happy for me to try and de-mount it.

Now Dot, this is where you will differentiate yourself from the other framer.
Not knowing for sure how to de-mount this item, you should get it to a conservator for a look.

You might be surprised just how quick they can do a job like this, how little it might cost, and close o totally safely, with their past experience / learning from performing such work.

If you are going to have a crack at it, then please post what paper / canvas etc the painting is on, what medium, and what backing.

This might give framers here an idea of things you can try, and of course if trying you would just do a very small corner to start and progress from there if it looks like it's going ok.

Me, I haven't de-mounted much in framing (nothing as yet like this) so haven't a clue, except there are sprays framers use to remove label glues etc. US framers refer to unseal a lot, and I have a 3M spray that is brilliant on those horrible barcode labels on just about everything nowadays.

[osgood]

The person who owns the work, is happy for me to try and sort it out. She doesn't want to go back to this guy and is happy for me to try and de-mount it.

How happy will she be when you damage or destroy the image when you try to "de-mount" it? Does the customer have a lawyer?

De-mounting is a job for a professional, qualified, experienced conservator! There are some adhesives that conservators have great difficulty in releasing.
It's not a job, even for a framer who has been framing for 20+ years, let alone someone who has had very little experience.

Warning, warning, warning (Will Robinson) ......don't do it!!!

[dottad]

Thank you all for replying.

Firstly, yes, my customer (who is also a friend) has been made aware that trying to remove it could go terribly wrong. I have told her that the drawing could be ruined. She just doesn't want the extra cost. The drawing wasn't hugely expensive, but getting it framed at the time she felt was. I guess, just another cost.
The cockling has gone right into the drawing on one side and is making its way into the drawing on the other side too.
The drawing is done in graphite and on 220gsm(100lb) paper ( I know this for sure as it was me who did the drawing!).
I suggested that I just re-do the mount and frame, leaving the drawing stuck to the backing board, but she is happy for me to try and remove it.
I guess if push comes to shove, I can always draw another one, but it would never be the same.
I will try and get some pictures of damage and post them.

[markw]

I wonder why the drawing has cockled - If it was flat in the first place and firmly stuck to a backing board - even badly stuck - I cant see why it would cockle so badly.
Was it on a very light weight of paper?
Did you apply any moisture when creating the drawing?
has it got damp since framing?

When removed from the backing board how are you going to flatten - and how do you intend to mount it to stop further cockling?

A problem I often encounter is the customer coming in with a cheap poster that they want framing at a price that bears some relationship to its value. If you whack it straight into a frame you end up with a disapointingly cockled image - dry mount and it looks great - but customer doesnt want to spend much money and you know the result will be bad. My attitude is that I need my customer to understand exactly what hes getting for the money and the extra few pounds will make all the difference to his finished frame. It sounds to me that your framer worked to a tight budget and its difficult to get it right unless you take time and care - using the right materials and techniques.

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

Mark,

I think that the drawing has been adhered with tape or spray or something that is not uniform creating this problem.

Personally, I would have dry-mounted Question 1 (Photograph) and hinge mounted the drawing - (Question 2). How to remove the drawing depends upon the adhesives used....we need more information. Pencil drawing? Ink? How heavy is the paper? As Ormond suggests....this may require the work of a paper conservator.

John

[dottad]

Thank you everyone for your input. I had another look at the drawing at the weekend. The corner was already lifting off, so with a bit of patience, I managed to remove it. I'm pretty sure it was 'spray on adhesive' and luckly for me it was low tack stuff. There was little residue left on the drawing and so managed to get it removed ok. As to the cockles, well, right or wrong (as it was my drawing in the first place - I took the risk), I placed it on clean paper upside down, gently sprayed it with a fine mist of water on the back, placed another sheet of paper on the top, a teatowel and ironed it (bet thats a new one on you!! Sorry guys). I then placed it still between its layer of paper under heavy weights (very large books) and hey presto - the cockles have come out. So we will see if it lasts.

The drawing has not been damaged in any way that I see, so if all is okay in a day or two (under its weighty books) I will re-mount it.

But, thank you once again for your help.

Dot