Cassis wedges compatible with Gielle underpinned?

[Overlander Matt]

Hi,

I’m very new to framing and have some fairly old kit that I am gradually learning about. The Gielle underpinner came with a limited supply of wedges that have now been used up and I have been given some Cassis wedges that don’t seem to work as well. Possibly I’m doing something silly or wrong. A 10mm wedge only pushed a few mm into an oak frame then bends. I haven’t tried a softwood moulding yet - that’s my next step.

Wondering whether I need to get some new wedges - I plan to get some hardwood ones too. Just trying to figure out what is going on!

Thanks in advance.

Matt

[David McCormack]

Welcome to the FF Matt

Can't say if Cassese wedges are compatible with you Gielle or not but Wessex do have Gielle wedges listed on their website:

https://www.wessexpictures.com/Gielle_Wedges.html

Probably best to use the correct wedges for your machine.

Dave.

[Overlander Matt]

Thanks Dave.

That was going to be my next step. I acquired my equipment from someone based in Leatherhead and he used Wessex for his supplies as they were 5 minutes away. I did note that Lion has a universal wedge that is compatible with Gielle but not Cassis which made me wonder if this might be a problem. I have an order to put in later today so will follow up on this post once I have an answer.

Thanks again.

Matt

[Not your average framer]

I used to have a Gielle 4000 underpinner and I can confirm that gielle underpinners do take universal wedges, however there are good quality wedges and not so good wedges. The best I've ever found are the Alfamacchine PTU universal wedges which I guess are still available from Lion. Be careful what you buy some makes of wedges can be not as good as others.

[poliopete]

Hello Matt and welcome to the FF

I must say I envy where you are based having not one but two excellent framing suppliers in your area, Mainline and A&T if you have not done so yet, both are well worth a visit

Wishing you every success.

Peter.

[MikeSwannick]

Hello Matt,

If you do resolve your wedge issue and end up with redundant 10mm Cassese wedges I would be interested in taking them off your hands.

Mike.

[Overlander Matt]

Thank you for the friendly welcome and helpful advice. Following delivery of some mouldings today I’ve spent some time on the underpinner. Certainly the 7mm wedges seem fine going into softwood but further investigation with longer wedges and with oak is needed before I will be sure.

On the subject of the oak frames, is it advisable to glue and clamp before underpinning? I’ve not done too well with oak so far.

Thanks once again.

Matt

[poliopete]

Hi Matt

FWIW Oak frames I glue and clamp in my Stanley 400 vice, drill, side pin, punch below the surface, fill and sand.

Works very well for me every time.

[prospero]

With oak frames I tend to insert one shallow v-nail (7mm) all round and then drill/side pin near the top. Fast as possible before the
glue sets. This is good if you don't have vices/clamps as the v-nail holds all the corners in alignment. When side pinning it's a good idea
to start both nails of a corner and tap them alternately to avoid sideways slippage of the joint.

[Overlander Matt]

Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem that Oak frames are going to be more complex... I had heard this would be the case! The underpinner has done an ok job on some softwood mouldings I've been using today albeit I have needed a band clamp to really close up the mitres. With 7mm wedges the end result has been good enough but 15mm have not been as good in terms of the mitred faces not being completely flush. More practicing required...

I don't have a vice yet. It would appear this would be useful but I need to find one for the right price. Use of the pins, nail punch and filler sounds reasonable. Going back to basics, what type of pins do you use along with length and hole diameter? Are these pins specific to framing?

On the subject of oak frames, do you find the mouldings cut ok with a Morso or is a mitre saw a better option? I guess it will be dependent on the dimensions of the moulding. I also noted that the oak mouldings were supplied unfinished. Do you normally finish the oak with oil?

Thanks for recommending a couple of local suppliers Pete - I have been to Mainline but not A&T. I will get there before too long though!

All the best and thanks again.

Matt

[prospero]

1] Don't buy a cheap mitre vice. If you are going to get one, get a good one.

2] I get the framing pins from Lion. They need about a 1.0mm drill.
You can just snip the end off a pin and use that as a drill. Fine for soft woods.

3] Oak is probably better cut on a Morso. If you get a really hard bit you can always cut it in 1/2 stop increments.

4] Plain Oak really only needs a good waxing to create a finish. You can coat it with Shellac or any varnish first and then
wax it. The more coats of varnish, then glossier the finish.
** Fresh cut Oak has very sharp edges. Good idea to slightly round them off.

[poliopete]

If you can get an old/second hand Stanley 400 vice or similar they are the best and last forever. The Stanley type is no longer made but I think Axminster tools do something nearly as good.

I will only add, keep the wood glue from the face of the unfinished oak because it can stain the wood

If you sand the hole left by the pin the sawdust fills the hole and binds to any glue residue creating a perfect finish.

The finishing wax I like to paint on and leave for 10/15 mins before buffing to a sheen.

Perhaps someone will bring up David's excellent youtube of him joining two pieces of oak.

[Not your average framer]

Since you are new to this, I would point out that there is a difference between framers vice and a bog standard mitre vice, so try to make sure that you get the framers vice. Insidentally, I was fortunate enough to get hold of one of the old original Stanley framers vices some years ago and it has proven to be of great use in my workshop, particularly when customers want old fashioned frames repaired, or re-sized to suit a small artwork.

If you are thinking of getting a framers vice, I for one would be happy to recommend buying one, but I have to admit that having a retail shop, does have a lot to do with customers bringing me that sort of work.

[fusionframer]

I use gielle wedges with a gielle 4000 and they work peefectly on oak or ash frames. I use 10mm as standard, but have used 15mm wedges on deeper mouldings with no problem. I have not tried any universal wedges however.

Nick

[Overlander Matt]

Thanks once again for the helpful advice.

I've had more success with the underpinner over the weekend trying out the Cassis 7mm and 10mm wedges a few softwood frames. I put my first two oak frames together today using 7mm wedges which just about went in! I seem to be very reliant on my band clamp to get the mitres to close tightly. Is this to be expected or is there an underlying problem that needs addressing? I would have liked to have pinned them too but I will have to do this in future. I will try to find a vice - the Stanley 400s seem pretty rare but I can at least start the search now I know what to look for!

Thanks once again. The guidance is much appreciated.

Matt

[David McCormack]

Do you normally finish the oak with oil?

I used to use clear wax on all my oak frames but now much prefer an oil finish.

I use Liberon finishing oil typically about 4 or 5 coats. So often I see, when out and about at art fairs, exhibitions etc., unfinished oak frames that to me look, well, unfinished! All my plain wood frames get a good sanding before finishing and then several coats of oil to build up a satin finish, the more coats the more sheen. You can't rush oiling an oak frame... you need a few hours between coats. It does change the look of the oak, more so than wax but to me that brings out the beauty of the wood

You can see how oil darkens oak on this frame with just one coat of oil. Subsequent coats won't darken it anymore but will add a sheen.

oak.jpg (272.41 KiB) Viewed 9182 times

oak-oil.jpg (244.76 KiB) Viewed 9182 times