CMC's - Reliability and Quality of Support Services

[Moglet]

Hi all,

Rather than clutter the "Gunnar Users" thread, I'd like to continue my CMC fact-find discussion on a non machine-specific basis. Hope that's OK!

Forum members with CMC's - I for one would find it really helpful to hear about your experiences of operating one, in particular:

1. The quality of training and support you received initially. Also, did you find that there was a technical 'glass ceiling' where your support rep can no longer provide answers to your more advanced questions? Were you left "high & dry" or referred to a higher level of tech support?

2. How reliable you have found your CMC on a day-to-day basis.

3. How much maintenance is typically involved in running the machine, what work one can do oneself, and what work (if any) needs to be carried out by 'authorised service personnel.'

4. Things that have gone wrong with the machines that required assistance from the supplier; and whether the quality of the technical backup and support provided by the supplier was (a) exemplary, (b) satisfactory, or (c) poor.

5. One thing that I have not heard discussed anywhere is the subject of Maintenance Contracts for CMC's. Do such services exist? Do you have clearly defined support Service Level Agreements with your suppliers?

6. In the event that your first point(s) of contact at the supplier fail to provide the support you need, do you have a clearly defined escalation path for problems within the supplier's organisation? Can you easily go directly to the manufacturer in the event of a problem?

Sorry to be on one about these issues, but after my experiences at the Spring Fair, the quality of CMC support offered by different suppliers has become a major concern for me, and will heavily influence my buying decision. If I'm going to shell out €15,000 (really scarey in Euros, innit!), I want to ensure that I get my money's worth in terms of ease of use, reliability and quality support backup for problems.

Bells and whistles are all very well but, first and foremost, the main benefit a CMC should offer to one's business is increased productivity on bread 'n' butter work. If a machine is a finnicky pig to operate, is unreliable, and has poor supplier backup, then all the software integration, funky corners and clipart in the known universe won't turn it from a liability into an asset. The need-to-haves are what count!

[WelshFramer]

Well, Áine, I don't know the answers to most of those questions but on point 5 I noticed that Wizard offer an extended warrantee which is £600 for 2 years or £1400 for 4 years. That suggests that either they're allowing for inflation or that they expect more problems in years 4 and 5.

The small print on the extended warrantee says that it covers shipping spare parts and the owner is responsible for fitting them.

That seems to be the nearest thing that they offer to a maintenance contract. A far cry from typical computer equipment maintenance contracts that offer 8-hour or 24-hour on-site support.

[Moglet]

That seems to be the nearest thing that they offer to a maintenance contract. A far cry from typical computer equipment maintenance contracts that offer 8-hour or 24-hour on-site support.

If Dell took that stance, I'd be looking elsewhere for my PC's...

[zanart]

We brought a wizard machine around 4-5 years ago - Rented it for 1st year then brought it outright for around £15000.

It is used every day, every hour and has cut thousands of mounts. Never had it serviced, very rarely have to calibrate it(possible once or twice), never been offered or had a service.

We have also never had an extended warranty for it.

Only problems we have ever had are as follows:
1: Blown air pipe connector - Part supplied by framers corner - approx £10.00

2: A few months ago the control box packed up. Spoke to Wozard Germany and Framers Corner who supplied a new control box next day.

Other than blades and initial machine cost the wizard hasn't cost us a penny.

[Lemon_Drop]

I got a Gunnar F1 over 2 years now. The choice I had then was Gunnar . Wizard, and the Valiani.
It was an easy choice to make then. The Wizard had no base in Europe at that time. The Valiani software was rubbish, even they would admit that, it has since been updated, along with Wizards base in Europe. so I picked the Gunnar.
The machine came in a crate on a Friday and Sarah from Gunnar arrived on Monday, she had it set up in 2 hours including the software, which she fine tuned.
On an average month we use between 150 and 200 sheets of mountboard and make somewhere between 240 and 300 frames a month, so we dont really do the mass produced mount cutting. Its used mainly for frames we make and some exhibition mounts for photos that dont need frames.

Most of the CMCs on the market are designed to run 24 hour days, so the average framer is not going to run it to the limits.

I can only talk about Gunnar when it comes to support. In the first weeks we had a problem with a air valve going to the cutting head, it got stuck in the opened position, the problem was caused by ourselfs, we ran an airline 100 feet away coming from a compressor which dryed the air, but over that distance moisture built up, and we did not fit an water trap before the CMCs air connection.
We phoned Sarah and she sent the part on a plane to Cork so we had it the following day.
I dont think your going to get better support than that, no matter what the the company your dealing with.
Also help and ideas come from Jared Davis who is famous worldwide for his mount designs and hes work with Gunnar.
I sent him an Email about extra designs that were not included in the Gunnar software, on the off chance he migh answer it. I got a reply the following day with lots of extra information plus 100's of extra templates.

During the time we have the CMC we did not change any of the software settings, theres no need to, it cuts perfectly, all we did was install the 2 major updates to the software plus the lesser updates which are released every 6 months.
The only things we do it check the water trap every 2 weeks, clean the cutting bed on a weekly basis with a damp cloth and cover the machine when its not working.

Just a comment or two to Aine before I stop. The majoritory of mount you going to be cutting are rectangles, V-Grooves and some ovals. and also multi-cut layouts that would take alot longer on a manual cutter.
Plus the fact that your posts are coming across to me someone who is afraid of buying a cmc, because support and reliability wise, if anything happens to it, its going to be left in a corner gathering dust for weeks.
I do know about the Gunnar support and I can safely say that that would never happen.
I dont know about other makers.

Aine, if you ever happen to be Co.Waterford, send me a pm, and you can try out the Gunnar yourself.
I will even supply the mount board.

I think I'm looking good got the JGF longest post of the year award also.

[osgood]

Lemon Drop,

Very well said! From my experience, I agree completely with you!

(Jared is a personal friend and one of the most helpful guys in the industry worldwide.)

[markw]

My Valiani has been relatively fault free. I had a minor problem when I installed the last software update as it didn't seem to be compatible with the hardware. Valiani sent me a new board - which unfortunately went missing between Italy and the UK.. This wasn't a huge problem as reloading the old software got me up and running. When the new board arrived it was a simple matter of slotting it in - loading new software and slight recalibration.

Support from Valiani Italy has been very good - I talk to Luca via Skype so no long expensive calls. I am looking forward to Simon's offering a good service...

I occasionally lubricate the runners and head - haven't recalibrated since last software update. Blades seem to last well and don't cost me a fortune. I would say that my manual mount cutter needed more attention payed to it to keep it on song than the Valiani.

[Moglet]

Thanks all for the feedback. This type of information is invaluable to me, and I really appreciate the comprehensive responses, especially from Lemon Drop.

Most of the CMCs on the market are designed to run 24 hour days, so the average framer is not going to run it to the limits.

As a new entrant to the CMC buyer's market, this type of information is new to me, and it's the sort of fundamental information that I tend to forget to ask at fairs, when the "wow factor" of the cutting capabiities captures the imagination to the exclusion of all else!

Also, I found your comments about compressors extremely useful, as they are a whole new ballgame for me, and it's terrific to get practical pointers for their use.

Just a comment or two to Aine ... your posts are coming across to me someone who is afraid of buying a cmc, because support and reliability wise, if anything happens to it, its going to be left in a corner gathering dust for weeks.

Ahh! That's the ex-techie and project manager in me coming out, Lemon Drop! I suppose that it's second nature to me to perform risk analyses. After the fair, I've really got my thinking cap on now, hence the questions I'm asking here and on the current Gunnar thread.

I find it invaluable to hear about the practical experiences of others, because it will help to set my own CMC expectations correctly. I see the purchase of a CMC as the most effective way to start expanding my business, as I do not wish to recruit staff until I can no longer avoid it. Because I will be basing my future production capacity and throughput rates on the implementation of a CMC, I very much see it as a critical piece of kit, so it's very good to hear how the generic technology is fundamentally reliable, regardless of brand.

Aine, if you ever happen to be Co.Waterford, send me a pm, and you can try out the Gunnar yourself.

Thanks, Lemon Drop! All going well, I'll be able to start driving again this year, in which case I plan to pop down to visit my cousin in Tramore, in which case I'd be only too delighted to take you up on your very kind offer!

[kev@frames]

Lemon drop has hit the nail on the head. Almost everything you do will be rectangles or arrays of rectangles.
Whilst we have received faultless and beyond the call of duty backup and service from Wizard and Framers Corner, most other users of other types of machine all seem totally satisfied with theirs, whatever the make.

I wouldn't worry about speed. In our business where half of it is online and purely cutting mounts, the speed of our 8000 isn't enough of an issue to start looking for a faster one at the moment. It would be an issue if we were doing a lot of bulk/contract mounts. But when we got the wizard it was pretty much the "usual suspect" for most operations, specially in the states, who ran then round the clock with cheap labour.

Now that so many people are getting CMCs, they are not "unusual" any more, and so you should expect good spares and reliability from any modern machine.

Also expect plenty of "competition" from other people with CMCs. Ebay is flooded with computer cut mounts, for example. And you *will* for sure generate more "stock" mounts from "free" waste than you can shift in a single shop.

Re: staff- look on the CMC as an extra member of staff

[Jared Davis CPF, GCF]

Most of the CMCs on the market are designed to run 24 hour days, so the average framer is not going to run it to the limits.

Hi again,

Thanks for the kind word's Lemon Drop! It's nice to know that karma goes around!

Please forgive me, as I feel inclined to clarify the incorrect perception of the 24 hour a day use of a CMC - all machines have a "limit" before they die... and some are even designed to die.

For example, a brand new Toyota Corolla is a popular, good car, but it is not designed to drive across the Saraha Desert - for this you need a special vehicle like a 4X4. Even then, a "cheap" 4X4 still may not go the distance. The same applies to CMC's - Not all CMC's are created equal.

Occasionally I come across a CMC buyer who only wants to buy "the cheapest CMC" he can get, and pump out incredibly ridiculous volumes from it. Taking my ethical standpoint, I refuse to sell him our "cheapest machine", because I know it won't suit his needs and I know from past experience it will only lead to frustration for both parties. He then goes to buy a "cheap" competitor machine.... abuses it for a year or so, then comes back to me to buy a proper production machine he should have bought in the first place. An expensive, but common lesson.

Now this may not apply to specifically to Áine, but there are no doubt other "less vocal" readers of this forum with similar questions and concerns about CMC's.

A lesson my dad always taught me was this, he said - "If you buy the best, you buy it once"... and as much as sometimes I could not always afford to "buy the best" - where ever possible, I've applied this principle and it has worked. Whenever I ignored this principle (eg: buying a cheap set of screwdrivers!), it always ended up costing me more time and money than the initial price difference in the first place. (eg: tools, cars, electronic goods, appliances, etc)

I've been in the industry long enough now to see some CMC's fall by the wayside & die, while others just keep going - even with just "average" custom frame shop volumes. I hate to say this, but there may be some CMC manufacturers who in fact count on this happening to assure themselves of future potential CMC upgrade clients too?

A Gunnar F1 - (the "energizer bunny" of CMC's ) has a recommended use of up to 500 mats per week, and I've seen it withstand 10 times this use in a production environment - but not long term, without some regular, serious "loving" & maintenance.

Any machine, brand new, can work 24 hours a day - but it just depends on how many days you want it to last.... and how frequently you intend to service & replace the wearable parts.

You guys produce a great TV show over ther called "Top Gear" with Jeremy Clarkson (who should run for Prime Minister!)- and this excerpt someone recently sent me from You Tube sums it up the whole quality thing pretty well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ21P6fFSuo
It gets good about 3/4's of the way through -> Why Top Gear doesn't like the "Ford Lightning" and why other countries don't buy Ford's pickup trucks?

Cheers,

Jared

PS - Am I in the running for the longest JGF post of the year award?

[Jared Davis CPF, GCF]

The need-to-haves are what count!

You got it...

Regarding Áine’s initial list of questions; these are probably best answered by real CMC’s owners in the field; however there were a few questions I thought I could add useful comment to?

1. The quality of training and support you received initially. Also, did you find that there was a technical 'glass ceiling' where your support rep can no longer provide answers to your more advanced questions? Were you left "high & dry" or referred to a higher level of tech support? Great question. With ANY CMC you decide to buy, I would recommend you get at least TWO days of on-site training to maximise the use of your machine from day one. If they don’t offer this as standard, ask how much extra it would cost and be prepared to pay it. It will be worth at least twice the figure they quote you. From past experience, whenever I tried to give a new CMC owner just a single day of training, it only allows enough time to cover just the basics and leaves them with some potential areas of frustration in the future. When asked by a potential customer “How much cheaper for the machine without the on-site training” I just say – “same price, we don’t compromised on training regardless… take it or leave it”.

3. How much maintenance is typically involved in running the machine, what work one can do oneself, and what work (if any) needs to be carried out by 'authorised service personnel.' Another great question – ask this one of each CMC manufacturer you are considering and get them to show you so you know what’s involved beforehand. See if you can get your hands on copies of each CMC's owner’s manual beforehand, and you can see what’s involved from there? Speaking on behalf of Gunnar, these CMC’s are all designed to be “low maintenance” with surprisingly minimal operator involvement.

5. One thing that I have not heard discussed anywhere is the subject of Maintenance Contracts for CMC's. Do such services exist? Do you have clearly defined support Service Level Agreements with your suppliers? In Australia, we are the only supplier to offer Preventative Maintenance Programs for CMC’s we sell, and although it may not be essential for a machine to be serviced every year or two, it still gives these owner peace of mind. After the mechanical stuff is done, I frequently find myself spending the extra “service” time with framer upgrading their free software, and taking them through some more advanced training.

6. In the event that your first point(s) of contact at the supplier fail to provide the support you need, do you have a clearly defined escalation path for problems within the supplier's organisation? Can you easily go directly to the manufacturer in the event of a problem? In all honestly, I think all major CMC manufacturers will offer direct support CMC owners in the field, if their distributors let them down for whatever reason? However some may be easier to contact than others? Past history and field experience is important in this regard. In the case of Gunnar in the UK, Sarah Osborne has been working with Gunnar CMC’s as long as I have, and she would have to be the most experienced and knowledgeable CMC technician in the UK. I know from speaking with her regularly (exchanging stories!), that she frequently goes beyond the call of duty to ensure her Gunnar owners are satisfied. The Gunnar techs in Switzerland head office all speak perfect English, and always welcome calls or contact should you require it directly. Furthermore, Gunnar also offers a private online support forum for registered Gunnar CMC’s owners to ask questions.

I hope this gives you a bit further insight?

Cheers,

Jared

[Moglet]

More excellent information, Jared. My thanks to you again.