Morso blade adjustment

[WannabeFramer]

Hi All,

I am perhaps going mad.

The blades that came with my 2nd hand machine seemed to cut a little out of square so I sent them to be sharpened (hollow ground). In the meantime, I used a second set of second hand blades which cut really well, but are now a bit dull.

I have just put on the newly sharpened blades and can't get a perfect mitre cut. The cut is so much better than before but just as 'off' as before they were sharpened. I took them off and put back on again, adjusted them as per the instruction on Lionpic but the same thing happens. I have adjusted the left fence slightly to compensate, but it is still not brilliant.

I've been testing on a flat batten and the reverse of the wood joins perfectly but the front is gappy. It is almost like the vertical cut is off.

I've taken the blades off again, cleaned everywhere so there is no detritus and tried again. The only thing I can now see is a small gap at the front of the blades. Should these meet? Any other suggestions? I can just about get away with it with a wood moulding and a bit of filling, but I have some coloured ones to do and the cut won't be good enough.

[StevenG]

Yes, those blades are not aligned properly, they're not going to give you a cut that will join nicely. I've said this before several times about blades that haven't been sharpened just right and that's the just buy a new set. The amount of time and moulding that you'll waste trying to get this sorted just isn't worth it. You'll get something for those 2nd hand but everything single time I've had issues with cutting/joining - even with freshly sharpened blades I just put on a new set and the cuts are back to being good. I understand a new set of blades may sound a bit overkill but it works for me, I've been doing it for several years and over time it pays for itself. If I have to spend hours fiddling about the left fence/blades on and off/testing etc etc I could have finished a few jobs and brought in a few £££'s.

[WannabeFramer]

Thanks StevenG.

I have had the most frustrating day doing my utmost to align the blades properly but they are just not having it. I have given up and put the other set back on, and they adjusted perfectly. And am now frustrated that I can't get a clean cut (chipping on the outside) as they need sharpening, and I have several frames I wanted to do over the weekend. I am close to throwing my toys out of the pram.

One thing I am confused about. These blades came with the morso and never cut true (the age is unknown), so I thought having them sharpened would sort it out. The sharpening place is a framing wholesaler and sharpens loads of blades, so I trust them. But what would be the problem with these? To get the top aligned, the bottom refuses, and vice-versa. Are they beyond repair?

I really, really can't afford a brand new set of blades at the moment unfortunately. With the volume I am currently doing (less than 5 a week) I think I will just have to time things so that I can pause whilst the one set is sharpened until I am in a better position financially. Or look for another second hand pair, but am feeling wary now.

[JKX]

I had a few sets over the years that didn’t want to play the game but all of them would line up ok when loose and squeezed together by hand before tightening.

My procedure was to insert all bolts loosely, hand tighten the top (front) bolts and then go left and right a bit at a time on just those top bolts with a socket. Sometimes I’d have to loosen one side and tighten the other but eventually they’d line up. Then tighten the middle and bottom pairs.

Sometimes they’d not line up at the top, but the bottom and the front is what matters. Maybe they’d been unevenly ground over the years or maybe even pairs had got mixed up, by the sharpener or by me.

It’s hard to tell from the angle of your photos but going by the size of the nuts compared to the cutting area below, your blades could be seriously worn down. Do you have a box with a shaped cut-out? If so that will show it.

[fitz]

I have had the very same issue. I agree with Steven on this. I have 4 sets of blades and only two of them cut perfectly. I spoke to the people at Mainline Mouldings who offer a blade sharpening service and they offered to check the badly cutting blades to see if they had been sharpened properly. They suggested bad sharpening may be the main cause and gave me some advice about checking the blade with a credit card to make sure they had been hollow ground. Anyway, I’m not messing around with bad blades and I did buy a new set which pretty much attached themselves to the Morso. They have been cutting to perfection and I’m not looking forward to when they need sharpened. I can’t be bothered with all this fence tweaking to compensate for badly cutting blades. I’d rather bin them. I wouldn’t buy second hand blades on eBay either as this is where people sell their crap blades.

I do tend to take a good number of slices with the blades to try and lengthen their active operational life even with narrow mouldings I will tend to take small shaves rather than bigger chunks. Finding a good sharpener is key.

[vintage frames]

If you are not in a position to afford a new set of blades, then why not forgo your underpinner for the moment and join up your frames with a frame band clamp.
Even if your cuts are awful, a band clamp will squeeze your mitres together and with the low volume you speak of, that shouldn't be much of an inconvenience.

[Justintime]

It's a lesson well learnt on my part. Once I bought a new pair, I wondered why I'd waited so long.
Peter at Framers Equipment in Northampton is my go to for blades. He'll give you the best price if you ask.

[JKX]

Last time I needed new blades, after a well known supplier delaminated two sets (or whoever they subbed the sharpening out to did) and failed to accept any responsibility ….. I shopped around, I expected Simons to be cheapest and they were but my Ashworth and Thompson rep managed to juuuuust beat them.


I had SIX pairs so I hadn’t needed to check the going rate for many years, it was a bit of a shock! When we closed I was going to sell the Morso with all six but I sold it with four and got about a third of that price for the other two sets of almost new blades!

[WannabeFramer]

Thanks all,

I have been up against it time-wise (I have 4 other jobs as well as framing!) so apologies, I haven't had time to sit down and write a proper reply.

I haven't yet tried again with the sharpened blades, but when I get a quiet time I will give them one more go as per JKX's method, just to be sure. If I can't get them to work then I will just put it down to experience. As I say, they never cut quite true originally.

In the meantime, I managed to cut most of the frames cut using the other set. I just took each cut very carefully and many more nibbles than I normally would, taking slivers off towards the final few cuts instead, so at least there is a workaround for the time being. Once I have this batch out the way I can decide whether to send them off for sharpening.

VintageFrames, that is something I could look at, but I would be nervous of not having a pin in. Would the method be to underpin later, or put a cross-pin in at the side later? I've not made any like that yet and I guess would only work for wood where I can fill the hole.

Justin: I am actually at Framers Equipment on Saturday for a training course, so I will have a conversation with Peter.

Going on a bit of a tangent, I am at a bit of a cross roads. I have only been doing this 'publicly' for a couple of months and already see the need to upgrade some of my equipment which was fine when I was doing it for my own purposes. It is which ones, and how to fund them I am grappling with. With such low volumes (whilst I build up and juggle the rest of my life) I have little money spare. I wanted to get a better mount cutter, then decided I can carry on with my Logan for a while as maybe going for a better underpinner might be a more judicious choice at the moment. (I have Casesse CS79 which is a little temperamental). Now I see I probably need to spend on blades, so need to decide which is more pressing. Decisions, decisions... and another conversation.

Anyway, I digress. Thank you all for your input, I really do appreciate it.

[WannabeFramer]

PS, John/JKX.

I have just measured both sets of blades. The 'OK' ones are 76mm across, the dodgy ones 65mm so yes, a definite difference in the wear!

[vintage frames]

Regarding the use of a strap-clamp -
I always found I could squeeze together the most gappy mitres using a strap clamp to pull everything together.
This is especially so when you make your own mouldings. You can never get the accuracy to ensure a perfect mitre.

If you can, use Titebond 3 on your mitres. Leave a good dollop on one of the faces and let a well tightened clamp squeeze the glue into the wood pores.
On a bare wood frame, you can cross-pin the next day, using a same size pin to pre-drill the holes, then fill.

On a prefinished moulding, do the same gluing but the next day, squeeze in one or two staples slowly into the underside.
Don't try to stack them.
The glue will give a very powerful bond and the cross-pins or staples will ensure mechanical rigidity.

[Justintime]

Do not be tempted to buy a Cassese CS1/CS1Uni. Just an terrible machine, it could put anyone off framing.

[fitz]

Justin, Can I ask what your issue with the CS1 Cart is? I bought one years ago and have used it every day since. Once I learned how to dismantle it and put it back together and work with it I haven’t had any problems whatsoever. I reversed the operation so I can pin from the back and it performs very well. I think it’s like everything else in framing it’s a case of getting to know your machinery to get the best out of it?

[Justintime]

My issue was firstly that I bought it new.
Expecting it to be the best foot operated underpinner on the market was next.
Maybe I was unlucky, but mine preferred if the wedges did not enter wood easily, in fact it mostly felt like I was using the wrong tool for the job. In contrast, the £100 CS88 I bought with the change I had left from selling the CS1 restored my faith in my ability to join a frame.

[Justintime]

Maybe I just had a shit one.

[WannabeFramer]

Thank you VintageFrames, I will have a practice. I am mostly pre-finished mouldings at the moment.

Justin - your last comment made me laugh far too much! A good laugh was exactly what I needed after I broke a piece of glass just as I was about to assemble a large frame. You inadvertently cheered me up

The underpinner I am putting to the back of my mind until I get paid for some work, but I won't be jumping into anything. It needs to be second-hand, and needs to be good.

[maciej]

Hi,

Greetings to everyone as a new member of this forum. I have found my topic here.

I have been the owner of a Morso F guillotine for a year now. It was purchased in Poland and is about 10 years old. It still has its first set of blades, which were sharpened by the previous owner and once by me. I have spent a lot of time adjusting it and ultimately had to compensate with the fence to get a good cut.

Now, I have a large batch of work to do, so I returned to adjusting it and faced the same frustration that several people here have described. After reading through the discussions, I have decided to buy new blades, but I want to describe the issue because it might not be entirely caused by the blades.

When I set the blades on the head, they seem to have slightly less than a 90-degree angle. I can't measure this perfectly, but I use a Starrett steel square and measure at the upper part where the blades meet. Given this setup, I would expect an open angle when joining two frame pieces. However, the effect is the opposite—I end up with an angle smaller than 90 degrees, making it impossible to assemble the frame properly.

When I test the cut on MDF or cardboard, I get something closer to a true 90-degree angle. But when I cut the actual frame, it turns out incorrectly.

I have aligned the fences perfectly with each other and with the ruler on the right.

What is going on? This seems to defy logic. Do you have any ideas?

[technoframer]

My machine does the same. You have answered your own problem in the first paragraph.

As the blades wear, the final cut on the left drags and the moulding creeps, ever so slightly, away from the blade as the cut progresses down. This means the cut is imperceptibly off from 45 degrees. Multiply this by 4 and the error becomes obvious when trying to join the frame. This doesn't happen on the the right cut because the measuring stop prevents it.

The answer, I find, is to sharpen the blades or move the left guide back a teeny bit.

[NTG999]

My logic was with a new set of blades that the left and right fence should be perfectly straight aligned with the right hand measure and everything would be good - not so for me.
The right hand fence should always be perfectly aligned with the measure, if I change blades I cut 2 pieces of the widest moulding I have, then check with a set square, incidentally I have found the plastic set square (I think available from Lion) is more accurate than 2 metal set squares I have. If the mitres are looking close I cut 4 equal sides and try in a pony clamp or with strap clamp and keep adjusting left hand fence until I'm happy
I also believe it is when cutting on the left the variations occur, try a solid wide piece of oak and you can feel it moving