HELP!!! Sticky problem

[NorthernTracey]

I regularly use Wessex own sticky board for mounting large photo's but recently found that some oversized photo's will not stick down properly whatever I do and even sending them to wessex fine art did not work. I therefore now ask that all over-sized photo's are mounted by the printers but then a student came to me with an urgent job with no time and I HAD to try again.
I decided to use the 'wet method' (pva) as I'd heard it was reliable.
DISASTER!
It looked fine but came back a week later with bubbles. The guy wants his money back and I asked him if I could try and get the photo off the backing (foam-core) but am stumped as to how to do it without ruining the photo's.
I have nothing to lose so want to try and get them off.
Anyone know any magic tricks?

[Roboframer]

Some foam board surface papers peel away from the foam quite easily, experiment on the back layer and if it comes off easily - leaving no foam stuck to it, try peeoling off the front layer and the photo with it.

If successful you can work on removing the paper from the back of the photo. But rather you than me!

[NorthernTracey]

Thanx Robo,
I have started trying that on one but it is a VERY slow job and there are 3 big photo's but yeh unless someone comes up with a 'magic trick' looks like that is my only option.

[deejay]

You could try running a stream of lighter fluid behind the back of the photo when you have peeled back a bit to start with. This often softens the adhesive and won't harm the photo if it IS an actual photo and not an inkjet-print.

[WelshFramer]

If it doesn't seem to be working just pause to have a cigarette.

[kev@frames]

..... then claim on the insurance

Seriously though, you have my sympathies. My restorer reckons these self adhesive boards generate a quarter of his local business.
I've had some disaters with them myself, however we do still use them with the customer's knowledge that it can and may go wrong, so no way if the photo, poster, or whatever can't be replaced.

In circumstances like yours we would always offer to have another photograph made, and pay for it. Its worth it for the goodwill usually. And will save hours of work.

[NorthernTracey]

Thanx Kev,
I actually didn't use sticky board this time as I knew it wouldn't work I used the wet method as promoted by the 'Yorkshireman' from Lions.
I actually managed to peel the top layer of foamcore off with the photo (although it was quite stubborn/well made) and then soaked the back with a very damp cloth and it actually peeled away very nicely like wallpaper and the stubborn bits cam off with some rubbing with damp cloth. Quite a therapeutic job in the end.
The lighter fuel wouldn't have worked as it was a PVA glue.
The next thing is what would you all recommend now. What is the BEST way to get them mounted? I don't have a dry mounter anyway but am not sure it would work too.
I want to avoid paying the customer back as it will be more than I made on the job for these prints!! But if I have to I hope he becomes a successful photographer and comes back LOL....

Thanx for all your input. This has been yet another learning curve.

[WelshFramer]

Not sure if I've missed something but is there a reason you can't hinge them the way you would any normal piece of art?

[prospero]

Hi NorthernTracy.
What technique are you using to bond the photos? Do you put the through a roller? I have never used this cold-mounting technique, but the trick with any mounting is to apply considerable pressure evenly all over the surface to consolidate the bond. If you use a hand roller or just the flat of your hand there are always going to be areas that get more pressure than others. The bigger the print the more it will tend to want to move.
IMHO the only reliable way is to use a heat press. And I always use dri-mount film rather than tissue. The advantage with the hot method is that if a section should lift you can reactivate the adhesive by putting it in the press again.
I know it's not much help, but if you can't run to a vacuum press there seem to be a few secondhand hard-bed presses about at the mo for about £200. If you are not doing a vast quantity, one of these would suit your needs and given all the hassle you seem to be having it would soon pay for itself. In fact if you put any ones that you mounted with PVA in a hot press, the heat should soften the glue and bond it properly.

[Bill Henry]

I actually managed to peel the top layer of foamcore off with the photo (although it was quite stubborn/well made) and then soaked the back with a very damp cloth and it actually peeled away very nicely like wallpaper and the stubborn bits cam off with some rubbing with damp cloth. …
The next thing is what would you all recommend now. What is the BEST way to get them mounted? I don't have a dry mounter anyway but am not sure it would work too.

If you’ve successfully dismounted this piece, and the rear of the photo is smooth (and I mean reaaalllly smooth), I might suggest you try to mount with a Pressure Mounting Adhesive (PMA).

If you haven’t used it before, it comes in sheets or rolls. You lay it on the surface and burnish the self-contained release paper so the adhesive adheres to the photo. Remove the release paper and plop it onto your foam board (or whatever substrate you are using). Press it evenly down with gentle and consistent pressure, and voilà, you’ve got your mount.

The emphasis on smooth cannot be over emphasized, though. The tiniest piece of debris trapped between the adhesive and the mount or art will show through the image as a bump.

If you lightly run your fingers over the whole of the dismounted piece and feel any roughness, it will show.

PMA is a great lifesaver for us. There is some art (like Inkjet prints) that behave very badly under the heat of a dry mount press. In this case, PMA is our only alternative. It is a bit more expensive per square unit than dry mounting, and a bit messier (it's so tacky that it will leave adhesive everywhere you allow it to touch something), but sometimes PMA is the only game in town. Keep a can of cigarette lighter fluid handy.

[NorthernTracey]

Thanx everyone for all the great advice. My budget cannot run to a heatpress right now but obviously I would LOVE one having worked with them for many years I know how great they can be for lots of situations.
I did however actually send a large photograph (and I mean large 5ft by 4ft) and even Wessex fineart couldn't get it to lay without bubbling!!!
It seems to be certain photographic papers just won't behave!!!

For others information the method I tried was 85% PVA and 15% water and a roller. As I don't have a heatpress I tried an Iron on the stubborn bubbles but they re-appeared later.

Anyone know what method photographic printers use??? As I am getting my photographer to have the large ones done there and they always look fine. Maybe it's that 'film' stuff mentioned above? Is it expensive??

[WelshFramer]

When I studied photography we used to use a heat press that, I think was specially made for mounting photographs. I had a polished steel or chrome bed that was curved - presumably to avoid bubbles.

I bought a heated vacuum press on eBay for less that £250. Not sure of the exact size (I'm not in the workshop at the moment) but it will take a complete sheet of standard mountboard. It's 30 years old or so but has quite new vacuum pumps and works perfectly. So it's well worth keeping a lookout for a bargain second hand press.

The bigggest problem with the press was finding space for it in the workshop!

[NorthernTracey]

Yeh space is a problem here too but the main thing is the problematic photo's are REALLY big!! Much bigger than standard mountboard size. They are obviously too big to just hinge and as I said before refused to stick to sticky board, bubbled even when dry mounted in a heat-bed press. That special press with the curved bed must be the answer then.
I guess another valuable lesson has been learned. I will continue to ask that anything over 3'x4' be mounted by the photographers.
I got 2 out of 3 off the backing successfully so not bad going.
Thanx guys!! *laugh*

[Mad Harper]

What kind of "sticky board" did you use - I'm having a similar problem - small photos fine, but large ones are fine to start with and then after a few days start to bubble. I used Fastmount board which is not the permanent one, so I can peel the photo back off the board. I was going to use the permanent board next, but after reading your post think maybe this could be a disaster. A friend who is a photographer suggested the self-adhesive foamboard which I have used before and certainly sticks anything it comes in contact with very permanantly! I have thought about a heat press but workshop is already full to capacity.

[Not your average framer]

Mounting anything large onto any type of self adhesive board is usually best avoided, unless you have a cold mounting roller machine and an extra pair of hands to help you.

Getting anything large to go down perfectly flat, straight and wrinkle free onto self adhesive board without help is both difficult and risky. Wet mounting something really large with PVA is rather brave too! I think you should look around for a dry mounting press as soon this becomes practical and affordable.

Getting one will solve most of your difficults and will be a real advantage to your business. I could not easily manage without one and as an ex-bookbinder, I've had plenty of practice of traditional wet mounting, a dry mounting press should be a priority when the time is right. Get one and you won't look back!

I have a substantial bookbinding press which I still use for wet mounting, plus a mechanical dry mounting press and a vacuum press recently acquired (thanks Mike). I can honestly say that I would not consider parting with any of them. You can never have too much kit, because difficult tasks come along on a regular basis in this game. Almost all of my kit is secondhand and I can recommend the secondhand route if money is limited.

[WelshFramer]

Glad to hear the press is working.

Vacuum presses are expensive but it's amazing how useful they are. I can now offer

:: glassless framing - cheap prints covered with a laminate, bonded to fomecore and stuck in a floater frame

:: gloss prints from my wide format printer that is only fitted with matt inks. I can print to cheap single-weight paper and then apply a gloss laminate (it's cheaper than swapping inks and using a heavier grade of paper)

:: flatten wavy watercolours (either by steaming or by sticking to Artcare Restore)

:: had some coper engraving prints in the other day - they were very wavy because the printer had got the paper grain round the wrong way. Wetting and shrinking the printed area and then flattening in the press is giving good results

:: warming the workshop in the winter - a 2.5 KW heated platten makes a big difference.

[Bagpuss]

:: glassless framing - cheap prints covered with a laminate, bonded to fomecore and stuck in a floater frame
.

Hi, I'm just about to do a floater frame, as described by WelshFramer above. I'm going to dry mount the print to 5mm Foamcore and then Matt Laminate it, do I need to attach it to a backboard first, before sticking within the floater frame, for extra strength ? Or is this unnecessary ?

Thanks,
Bagpuss

[guzzijim]

When I studied photography we used to use a heat press that, I think was specially made for mounting photographs. I had a polished steel or chrome bed that was curved - presumably to avoid bubbles.

I think you'll find that piece of kit was for drying and glazing traditional prints made by wet process, long ago before inkjet printers!

[WelshFramer]

I'm going to dry mount the print to 5mm Foamcore and then Matt Laminate it, do I need to attach it to a backboard first, before sticking within the floater frame, for extra strength ? Or is this unnecessary ?

Shouldn't be necessary unless it's large. I've done prints 17 inches by about 30 inches with no problem. Don't forget to make sure they stay flat while cooling. I then glue all round the frame rebate with wood glue when sticking them in. If the laminated print is a little warped then a weight on each corner while the glue dries sort that out.

I used to use Lion's floater frame moulding but I've recently started using some similar mouldings from Simons. Some of the Simon mouldings have a slightly smaller rebate so a print laminated to 5mm fomecore tends to stand a little proud. The answer is either to use 3 mm fomecore or use 5mm and give it a final session in the Hot Press after it has been trimmed to size. That puts a nice bevel around the edge.