Underpinner problems

[Roboframer]

Thanks Mitreman your more or less saying exactly what i meant.....A time and a place for it......I rest my case.

Mitreman is saying always glue for custom framing and not necessarily for volume framing. Advice was asked for on custom framing - it's two different worlds. I'm sure we can learn from each others' worlds though.

Mitreman is also saying

Yes you can get a rock solid joint without glue at the time of joining, but over time I would expect it to open.

Well, I rest my case too then - but volume framers are in a minority here, maybe you're the only one, or if not, possibly the biggest.

Are the majority of your customers end users, or are the end users of your frames, customers of your customers' customers? If so you're not going to see those frames back, but whoever sold them, or the nearest framer to those end users might though. I've had bags of non-glued volume type frames, (as well as bespoke) large and small, to repair/replace - if any came from you - then

As for all your experience and equipment - fine, but - for example - blasting pastels with an air gun and then sticking them down for 30 years doesn't mean it's the best thing to do.

As for the finest framer you have ever seen, I don't care who he is - there are at least two in this topic that would eat him for breakfast.

Now see if you can find a similar exchange with the majority being for no glue.

[Davie]

First of all Robo i never mentioned either volume or bespoke, secondly i never said NEVER use glue thirdly i guess you never looked at that website.....As for people on here eating other framers woopee!!!!! i only pointed out that the framer in question was the best i had ever seen not the best there was.

I take it from your tone i have upset you, i only wanted informed information and asked you to supply it, i now see its beyond you and that its easier just to have a go.....So your right im wrong and no one in this forum is any the wiser.....At least i provided a web site to confirm what i was saying and still believe that glueing is not set in stone.....But again im open to have my mind changed...with facts not just the word of what others may say.
And yes many of my customers are end users and many have been coming time and time again for many years, I also have many corporate clients, interior designers etc all seem perfectly happy with the service and quality, whether off the rack mouldings or handfinished, washline mounts to slip mounts as for your comment on pastels i have no idea what the hell your talking about, I have never glued a pastel down unless it was the only way and only with the express permission of the customer.....I would however appeciate you not getting personal and keep the forum an open lively debate on FRAMING>>>>>>Regard the no brainer

[Davie]

IM sorry Robo i did take a look at the grumble as you suggested, Thankyou! but again NO facts.....AS for fletcher terry pinners mentioned within it i have no idea what they are like as i only use cassese....Again none the wiser. By the way i did like your washline mounts, think i may do some again, Are they making a come back where you are they died a sharp death in scotland but rosenstiels still do a fair amount with them, French mounts still seem very popular up here along with extra thick.


As for the glue situation i guess we just have to agree to disagree.

[Roboframer]

i guess you never looked at that website

What website? No - I didn't do a Google search - but if I do, I'll post the link - you could have.

[qoute]I take it from your tone i have upset you, i only wanted informed information and asked you to supply it, i now see its beyond you and that its easier just to have a go.....[/quote]

No you've not upset me at all - I just don't agree with you. I supplied information too - two links with discussions on using glue - both in favour, both with input from respected names in the industry. I can provide more.

I have never glued a pastel down unless it was the only way and only with the express permission of the customer.....

I never said you had - I said 'e.g.' - Someone, with a lot of experience, recently said they did here. Another, with 27 years experience asked how to mount something that I knew (others too) how to with less experience. He ended up using superglue! My point was that time served is not always any indication - and nor is the amount of equipment/scale of an operation and I don't agree with some things you are saying, and probably hundreds of others have been doing for donkeys.

I would however appeciate you not getting personal and keep the forum an open lively debate on FRAMING>>>>>>Regard the no brainer

I'm talking about methods, that's all - and pointing out well respected educators with resumés that you can see, who would disagree with you. If my tone seems a bit 'off' I apologise - it wouldn't be that way if this was a chat in the pub. It's just that, for me, and the majority really, this is a basic principle of framing being questioned, which I have backed up with exterior sources, and have asked for something in return (that I can click on) to back up the other side of the argument.

But anyway - if I was worried that my pants may fall down, I'd wear braces (suspenders in US speak) as well as a belt!

[Roboframer]

IM sorry Robo i did take a look at the grumble as you suggested, Thankyou! but again NO facts.....

Well, I've been a Grumbler for a long time - some there have such respect that their word is taken as fact.

By the way i did like your washline mounts, think i may do some again, Are they making a come back where you are they died a sharp death in scotland but rosenstiels still do a fair amount with them, French mounts still seem very popular up here along with extra thick.

Washlines never went away here (don't mean in my part of the world, mean in my own business) I get plenty of stuff that suits, so I push them - also get plenty to match and do a lot of my own stuff for sale in the shop in them, which act also as props. They only go away when I just can't be arsed.

Don't like extra thick unless they are wrapped or gilded - too much grief adjusting blade depth and calibrating stops - don't have a CMC. But artcare bevelled accents (expensive cop-out) move well.

Now then - double mounts - stick 'em together with double sided tape AND PVA, right?

[Davie]

http://www.pfmproduction.com/pdfs/PFMP_ ... _Nails.pdf

Sorry Robo here is that link, Your argument of what people on the grumble say is again im afraid hearsay not facts.....Sorry to bang on but if this is a basic principal of framing then surley it can be backed up with hard facts.....As i have said many times already i see the need for glue at times but by no means all of the time............

[Roboframer]

Thanks for that link Davie.

I didn't read it all - skipped to the glueing bit - some agree with you/you agree with some, and some agree with me/I agree with some - well, more than me actually.

I could have used that link to back up my claims - read what pistorious says - and that's just the one they picked out after saying that many underpinner manufacturers say that glue is also required.

So that is all also hearsay - but the links I have posted are IMPARTIAL. You don't know the people there; I do - I've met them, well, some, and I trust them - I've not done the research nor do I have the qualification -but they either have or actually do. I can take this there if you like - but only if you'll agree to join in with me there. Up for it?

Your link is also aimed at the volume market - http://www.pfmproduction.com/ I attended the WCAF show in Vegas in Jan and PFM 'production' were there - had a huge section of one hall.

Good link anyway though.

[Roboframer]

I'm surprised that more have not leapt to my/the defence here, as one time, not that long ago, I was slated for knocking a frame up while a customer waited. (I know - 'knocking up' can mean other things - yawn yawn)

Apparently some not only use glue as well as 'V' nails, but also see a need to allow that glue go off, overnight in some cases, before assembly!

Also, apparently, one is not supposed to do things fast as it leads customers to believe that framing is 'easy'!

Where are you now - ya whimps!

[barefaced framer]

Whenever we make up a quick frame or complete an order much quicker than than the lead time, the customers are always very pleased with our speedy service and more likely than not will be back again.

BTW we have always used both glue and wedges- just as we were taught.

[Davie]

LOL Robo, Aye the wimps where are they...Im done to death with this but repeat what i have already said, Sometimes i use glue but by no means all the time.

I did enjoy the post after yours, ,,,,"We always use glue and wedges, just as we were taught" LMHO when will people start to think for themselves, maybe its just easy that way....For me i need to know why im doing something.

Maybe i should have stayed a stone mason, at least i could see the need for morter, unless its dry stone walling. OH S*** here i go again lol.

Just a thought to end this why not use silicon on the joints, not only will it hold the mitre it will expand and contract lol....I gest (or do I)

[Davie]

Just noticed your comment on mounts (Double) yep double sided and pva.....This no brainer agrees on that one, Glad to hear washlines still do well for you, Think i got a bit P*ss*d off doing them after i done 1500, mounts triple line and centre wash, just about drove me mad, Although i did learn from it as i used water color paint thinned for the wash, but some types left an overlap on the last corner, no way i could let those go out , and ended up with some using good water color paints from simons..... Golds were always more hassle but when done looks great, and alway with a bow pen....lol

[Roboframer]

I hope we all understand the term 'no brainer' the same way.

This in no way insinuates that anyone has no brain/is stupid. It just means 'does not need thinking about' - or 'a foregone conclusion'

[Davie]

Its cool, But i do think all aspects of our industry needs thinking about, how else do we progress, But take the point. And thats me im done on this subject,,,,,,NEXT

[barefaced framer]

Just because we do it ' just as we were taught' doesn't mean we don't change things or progress.If we need to do so in the future we will.

As I'm sure you are aware, this job is a constant learning process, and from other threads on here that is very apparent, as some
things I have done for years are not known by people who have framed for far longer.

That's why this forum is so good.

You learn something new every day.

[anji]

Talking of Cassese wedges, please could someone tell me how to tell them apart? Colours for different sizes, fine, but hard/soft isn't mentioned anywhere, not even on the box they came in.

Thanks

Anji

[jay]

Hi Anji

The Hardwood wedges I got from Lion have a sticker on the box (their own) also there is an "HW" in front of the bar code on the box end.

There is also a "hardwood" sticker on each stick of wedges.

Hope this helps

Jay

[anji]

Thanks Jay - the absence of HD on the box or stickers on the sticks clinches it - the ones I was querying are for soft wood. Wish they'd put SW on them for numpties like me!

Anji

[Not your average framer]

I can't understand what is gained by not using glue. Glue is cheap and if you use it straight from the bottle onto the moulding it's very quick and easy to apply.

As far as I'm concerned the underpinning holds it all together while the glue sets. If a customer needs a frame made while you wait, I'll often do it, if I'm not already on an urgent job. I still always use glue and wedges, leaving the glue out is daft.

If you care about doing a good job, then you will want to glue the joints. Anything less is unprofessional and no better than the mass produced rubbish sold in chain stores.

[vfmarky]

Most V nail strips have a colour coded glue strip - the 'top' side of the strip. My Cassese V-nails are red for hardwood and grey for softwood. I have to confess to using hardwood V-nails almost all the time if the moulding timber is close grained. If its not I'll use softwood V-nails. It's all to do with the way they're sharpened (a bit like a razor blade - double or single edged) so as to avoid the V-nail following the grain and skewing out the side of the moulding...