Polcore

[Graysalchemy]

I agree with you there Prospero, I do glue big mouldings but small mouldings on contract jobs no, I just bang in as many pins as I can. Also glue and underpinner blocks are a bad combination I have ruined many a block and hammer from glue.

also to hold the frame together in the event of a catastrophic failure.

What is catastrophic failure, surely if a picture falls of the wall the frame is likely to crack anyway plus broken glass is going to cause more damage to a painting than the frame not holding together.

[prospero]

Well if the joint wasn't pinned at all, there is nothing to stop the frame falling completely apart if the glue fails. If one corner goes, the opposite one is under more strain and that will probably go as well. Catastrophic Failure.

At least if the same thing happens with pins in the corner it will hold together in a fashion.

[Graysalchemy]

Ah I see what you mean. I must say I have never seen that happen in all my years of framing usually the wall hangings give way before one of my frames does

[prospero]

The other bit happens when it hits the floor......

But the usual thing is when the frame gets a knock. Especially on the corner. Done it myself.

[Nigel Nobody]

Yes Chris whilst the glue is wet under pin it. It is the under pinning that gives you tight joints the glue merely adds an extra bond.

I'm with Prospero on this. I totally disagree with the above statement. The glue is really what holds the joint together. The vee nails are an extra reinforcement and they hold the joint together while the glue dries.

I've seen frames many times without glue and they are always sloppy and slide apart after a short time. They also look shoddy, IMHO. Nothing could persuade me to not glue a joint even in a large number of cheap frames. If a framer is going to leave out vital components like glue in the joints, what's next? The glazing? The backing? Why not leave the moulding out completely? That would save a lot of time.

I just bang in as many pins as I can.

I totally disagree with this method. Using too many vee nails, weakens the joint because it weakens the integrity of the moulding.

[stcstc]

I leave out the glazing sometimes, he he

mind the print is laminated with hotpress products so its as well protected, he he

[Graysalchemy]

If the budget is really bad I just supply the print with a bit of blue tack

[Roboframer]

if it was a bespoke job or a large frame then of course I would glue the frames

Why 'of course'?

I mean it works for hotel walls, what's the difference with house walls? And what if it was 200 large frames, for a hotel?

[prospero]

Have you seen the price of BluTack lately?

[Gesso&Bole]

Do you use the Archival grade of Blu Tack, or just the standard?

[Graysalchemy]

Archival of course its not actually blue any more its white and it doesn't leave any marks on the wall .

Roboframer in answer to your question what is the difference between a hotel wall and the wall of a private house the answer is non, apart from the fact the walls in a private house will not have wet paint on them when the pictures are hung. It has everything to do with time and budget. Items for a hotel are a budget item which I may only get a few days to frame 150 pieces. In any refurb job pictures are the last thing to go in and most of the time the budget has been used up elsewhere and quite frankly the designer hasn't given the pictures much thought. As a result orders are not placed till the last minute which gives you precious little time once materials and prints are ordered to actually frame up the job. On average I will get about a weeks notice from receiving purchase order to when they have to be delivered.

Last week I had a job for a Thai restaurant which I have known about fora few weeks but had no details of what was being framed, what it was going in and how many pieces. It turned out they were all objects to be box framed, which the boxes had to manufactured out of MDF jointed glued and painted, but the objects didn't start arriving until Tuesday, some didn't arrive until Friday lunch time but the whole job was completed by close of play Friday.

With regards to what would happen with an order of 200 large frames well then yes they would be glued, but then I would be charging more. The reality of hotels is that pictures going in bedrooms are cheap and cheerful those in public areas ie reception, bar areas and restaurants, the budget is usually greater and they want wood mouldings with bigger more elaborate mounts, and I would get more time to do a smaller number of frames.

A job for a private client is totally different and would be framed to a higher standard.

These are the constraints that we have to work under in the leisure and hospitality sector and perhaps Robo if you regularly did this type of work then perhaps you may understand.

If any one else from the bespoke sector feels the need to have ago at me please feel free I believe it is International Bash a Contract Framer Week so please get them in.

Thank you.

[Graysalchemy]

I have one last piece of evidence your honour to put forward for the defence at today's kangaroo court hearing.

Robocop you asked what was the difference between a hotel wall and a domestic wall and I said nothing.

However there is a difference in fixings used. You wouldn't attach a picture frame in a public area using string and d rings, you use secret fixings clicky, which are placed on the two vertical sides of the frame and more importantly on the bottom the frame. Secret fixings are then attached to the wall with a wall plug and screw. As a result the load of the frame is born by the bottom rail of the frame which in turn by the wall and also by the two sides. As a result no weight is loaded against any joints of the frame. When large pictures are hung multiple fixing points are used . Ear plates could also be used but provide limited protection against theft and are quite unsightly IMHO.

However if you have experience of hanging pictures in a commercial environment then you will already know this and realise you mistake.

As I have said in previous posts framing is a broad church and we all have techniques which are befitting the environment and sector we work in. I agree glueing frames is better but I think you will see now why it is not necessary in this case. Bespoke framing techniques are not always practical in commercial framing and you have to adapt accordingly.

I know you and Ormond will continue to disagree with me but that's you prerogative at least I have tried to explain to you.

[prospero]

OK folks. This topic was about what glue to use on polymer mouldings. I think that has been covered, but anyone who has any other tips - go ahead.

This isn't the place for a slanging match about any other contentious issues.

'nuff said.

[Graysalchemy]

Sorry Prospero but I think you kicked this one off, but I am quite happy to rest my case in the interest of forum harmony. However if people are unaware of the full facts then how can they judge.

Thanks

Alistair

[Nigel Nobody]

I think that talk of 'kangaroo court hearings' and 'slanging matches' is being a little far fetched.

If anyone reads my post, I think they should find that I said 'I disagree' and gave reasons why I disagree. Those are my opinions.

The reason I stated my disagreement is that I am concerned that newcomers to the industry might think "it's OK for AG to not use glue or to put as many vee nails in a joint as will fit, therefore I could do that too." My opinion is that they should not do that too. My opinion is that no-one should do those things in fact, but everyone needs to make their own decision, based on the knowledge they have.

Those techniques may be standard techniques in 'commercial' framing, but they are not standard or acceptable in custom/bespoke framing. As almost all users of this forum are custom/bespoke framers, I believe it to be imperative that the viewpoint of custom/bespoke framer is stated.

I am also totally in favour of forum harmony and I don't see that a difference of opinion in this case has done anything to affect that.

[Graysalchemy]

Ah I get it now this is a forum for besppke/custom framers. Let me get my coat and find the commercial framers forum, is it next door.

What a presumption to make I have meet loads of commerciial framers on here. If you read my posts I make it quite clear that I frame to a standard befiting the brief. You will see that on many occasion I say that I do glue joints in fact I did it today.

Please try and leave your framing prejudices behind and perhaps accept there is more to this industry than high street bespoke framing.

[stcstc]

Just a minor point

this forum IS for ALL framers, and no one should be made to feel otherwise

when it comes down to it there seems to be a very broad range of work and jobs, and budgets. and we all work to what works for us and our customers

we are all entitled to are opinions, and both sides of this discussion are valid for their market.

[philmagill]

hi I have used all sorts of glue,and by far the best I have used so far is my hot glue gun that I bought on eBay, for around £15 the glue sticks are also around £15 but will do you a long time

[seesaw101]

For what it is worth, my experiences in the "Colonies" with resin type frames was to use a cyanoacrylate specially formulated for these types of "plastics".
It was Rite-Lok PR40. I have tried to obtain supplies here and have found it available at a pricey £9.50 / 20 ml.

I have tried it on Polcore and it seems to be effective as it fuses the materials together and forms a very secure mitre, especially when underpinned as well.

[strokebloke]

Seesaw101, try this outlet.
It is where I get my super glues for pen-making, on the lathe.
I've found them to be good/helpful and offer commercial quantities at the right prices

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/WAYSIDE-ADHESIVES-DIRECT

HTH
Jack