Pricing for shadow box

cleeve_prints · Post by **cleeve_prints** » Tue 27 Feb, 2007 9:44 pm

Hi everyone I hope someone can give me some advise with regards pricing of a shadow box. I have only been full time framing since December 2006, and this is the first request I have for a 3d item, in this case a knife. I don't have a problem with how to frame it just the what to charge for the actual construction. The materials used, moulding, glass etc I can calculate but its the time taken to produce that I'm not sure about. As this is the first one I have done it will take me longer than pehaps it will after I have done a few but will be unfair on the customer to charge for my time just because I am slow to begin with. I was wondering if anyone would care to share how they price these kind of jobs.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Tue 27 Feb, 2007 10:01 pm

I figure, as a rule, it'll take about twice the time of a plain vanilla frame, when you get into the swing of it.
So twice the labour factor of a "regular" frame, or a fixed charge per "box" on top.

As a base rule, I think we have our shop counter pricing software (estlite) set up to charge another fiver for a small shadow box (plus the materials and their usual markup) and an additional tenner for a large one (over 12x10). This is just for teh sake of simplicity. They seem to average out, some take longer, some take hardly any extra time at all.

Customers feel happier with a fixed price you can give them right at the start.

eg a 14x14 or 16x12 in our lowest price band works out about £18, so 28.00 plus for a similarly low priced shadow box the same size. I picked on the 14x14 or 16x12 as its a fairly average sort of size for this sort of job. Allowing 30 minutes for the job. (we generally allow an average about 10-20 minutes for the average frame with a mount, fitting, finishing, and sealing up, based on the industry average of 20 minutes per job that I read somewhere years ago)

we do a lot of football shirt cases/frames online. I remember the first one took an hour, the first few dozen down to 20 minutes apiece, now its a ten minute job. Medal cases 5 minutes. When it becomes a routine job with familiar materials the quality rapidly increases and the time diminishes. Take your time on the first one, and dont feel daft taking pics or making notes to remind you where it went right (or went wrong) when it comes to the next one.

any help?

cleeve_prints · Post by **cleeve_prints** » Wed 28 Feb, 2007 12:13 am

Thanks Kev, That's just what I was looking for. I think the fixed cost option+materials will be the most straight forward as you say. I really appreciate your help.

Steve

Not your average framer · Wed 28 Feb, 2007 9:59 pm

Wow, Kev,

A medal case in 5 minutes. How on earth do you manage that? Is that for the whole job, or is this extra time above and beyond your normal framing time? I would be pleased if I could do the whole lot in 30 minutes. I must be getting too old!

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Thu 01 Mar, 2007 3:52 pm

basic case - whole job- but obviously not including the time putting the medal(s) in!!!
Tom and Al are so into the routine of them that I reckon they could do them blindfold.
of course we allow another 5 minutes if they have a wax or polish finish.we just do them to a standard pattern, usual routine a deep obeche moulding with the space cut in the same chop, pinned then sanded nice. foamcore back, mounboard liner on that, or sometimes one of those "flock" type boards, then MDF behind it as a main backing and a pair of scroll clips.
most of them are made from offcut from our football shirt cases.

Not your average framer · Thu 01 Mar, 2007 10:09 pm

Thank, Kev,

I've started lining them with Arqadia suede mountboard, I find their suede colours are really stunning. I have a mount at the front, a cheap Simons pine moulding for box bit fitted in behind the mount (lined with suede board), with suede board in the back followed by the backing board and flexi-tabs fire in an angle to avoid coming out of the thin section form by the sight edge of the pine moulding which sticks out at the back to give a reccess for the backing boards. The pine moulding is fixed in with Fletcher multi-tabs and screws. I ain't very quick - 30 mins if I try! (Usually I don't try that hard)

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Thu 01 Mar, 2007 10:51 pm

That is very nice stuff. I remember once using some "leathery"l ooking board from Slaters for same effect.

The customers seem to like the big scroll clips, which means they can get the medals out when they need to wear them. Saw one once with a couple of rememberance day poppies in there, which said it all, really.

I have to admit, we dont charge much when someone brings his own medals in. Services, police, fire, RNLI or whatever.

We did get a router to make our own box mouldings (luckily Tom that works for me was a joiner by trade, and pretty gifted with timber) but we never got round to making proper box frames. Plan was to sink a rebate in so that you could assemble 3 sides then just slot in the glass, backing etc, and the 4th side would then hold the lot together.

Found that the deep obeche moulding we use (must be 50 or 55mm deep) works very well when they want to stand the cases, rather than hang.

Not your average framer · Thu 01 Mar, 2007 10:56 pm

With my method a mount at the front is needed to hid the pine moulding used for the box extension, but it means I can use any moulding the customer wants. Here's a couple of examples, they both were somewhere between £60 and £80 each if I remember correctly.

Not your average framer · Thu 01 Mar, 2007 11:37 pm

kev@frames wrote:Plan was to sink a rebate in so that you could assemble 3 sides then just slot in the glass, backing etc, and the 4th side would then hold the lot together.

Venton's do a moulding which works like that. I assume it's still in the new plain wood mouldings catalogue, but I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that replacing the glass means a new frame.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 01 Mar, 2007 11:45 pm

Medals are not very thick at all, these are in a frame with about a 3/4" rebate - room to mount the photos/text as normal, plus to set the medals back from the glass with 5mm econospace, or was it the 9mm, whatever...

Behind this one was layers of 5mm foam centre board with the edges lined, again it all fitted into a deep rebated frame - I'll always try and find a frame deep enough, or even extend the rebate, and if I have to build a box I'll hope to go for a wider moulding, Hate what I call the 'cuckoo clock' effect!

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Thu 01 Mar, 2007 11:45 pm

There does seem to be a limited choice in deep mouldings. Specially narrow and deep (deep thin gilt hockeystics that used to be available and asked for seem to have fallen out of fashion or been discontinued) so for making frame extensions ventons have one of these that I use as a general purpose job.

this one doesn't need to be hidden, although its only about 25mm deep, quite nice when painted! its also a nice 5mm front, so it sits flush to the rebate and holds the glazing in nicely.

you can see it in the pic below. I find these are very useful in general, it is actually supposed to be a moulding (rather 70s style) rather than a spacer. this is a pic from our website.

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it will fit nicely in any deep moulding....

heres that spacer, in red - does away with a mount

heres one we stained (briwax medium brown) same as the obeche frame, as you can see it is deep enough to take a plaque inside the frame.

here we used it just to space mounts off decopage, beauty is that the artpiece simply sits into the back of the wedge shaped spacer. The mount is hot-melt glued to the spacer from inside, then the lot sits into any frame you choose. Or it works without the mount. (for the cuckoo clock effect if desired

)

I find we have to cut iit "upside-down" in the morso to prevent unsightly breakout at the back. Normally this would be no big deal, as the finishing and sealing can hide a multitude of sins, but its good practice to make it as neat as possible and a habit that the lads in the workshop have got into.

handy stuff!

ps. a lot of the above stuff is "self fit" as we sell them online, ( shirt frames, medal cases etc) so the plan is to make it easy and simple for the customer to fit their own items.

half a dozen stainless steel dressmakers short pins in the edge of the foamcore will hold a shirt nicely, although we obviously couldn't fit them that way in the shop. But its a different matter when the customer does it at home and pops it straight on the wall right away.

The local rugby club in particlar, have walls upon walls full of shirts in frames, and they like to have a few "fresh" ones or topical ones which they put in and take out themselves.

Not your average framer · Fri 02 Mar, 2007 8:50 am

John & Kev,

Your examples are both excellant. This is becoming something of a classic tutorial as well as answering the original pricing question. I am sure some of the newer framers will be finding this thread very interesting and helpful. How about an indications on how you price these?

Also, from time to time I've heard about box sections being made from foamboard. Not my thing at all, but perhaps someone would like to contribute something along those lines too! I understand this is very popular in the USA.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Fri 02 Mar, 2007 5:24 pm

foamcore/foamboard is great for making box sections too, quick, cheap and effective. I guess the box-section part of framing is the one where we use whatever materials we can to achieve the right size!

one great thing with foamcore is the light weight and it will take almost any of the adhesives we all use - right from licky-tape, hot melt glue, pva etc. Sometimes shadow boxes can fall into the "blue peter" category, with several boxes behind different apertures in a mount, in which case foamcore is perfect for making up the diffent depth boxes.

we often use 25x6mm or wider slip (PAR = plain all round) for the same, and pin it in the underpinner. or sandwich various depths of this PAR slip between mounts to achieve a required depth. looking on the shelves here I can see we have 40mm, 25mm, 12 mm and 6x6mm which seems to serve us for most jobs.

pricing? well, we pretty much go for a "one price fits all" fixed charge per "box" which can be £5 or £10 on top, plus materials, or an additional 50 to 100 percent added depending on what we have to fit into the frame when its done.

we have been known to fit 12v cold cathode lights into them - but I dont reckon this is advisable for anything approaching conservation (flourescent lamp inside a frame lol) - more or the novelty item and the shop window.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 02 Mar, 2007 8:44 pm

For Econospace I charge as per a double mount, a box from battens I charge £2:50 per foot up to 3" depth.

Foamcore I charge an extra mount per layer, 3 or 5mm - the above was 10mm so I charged for an extra 2 mounts, plus another one for lining.

It's all offcuts too - the 'box' is made from strips of foamcore, ATG'd and made more permanent with dots of Lineco neutral ph glue between.

There'll be fitting charges per item for the medals and badges too.