Fixing MDF to Canvas Moulding

[blokman]

Just had a customer in with an original piece of artwork painted in acrylic onto a 15" by 15" lump of MDF.

It has cost him quite a bit of money and I am loath to attach the painting to the frame using screws as I can forsee that the MDF could potentially split.

I am considering glueing but unsure of the best adhesive, I have thought about pva or as an alternative evostik, but would appreciate your views.

Many thanks
Rob

[Roboframer]

I'm not sure what a 'canvas moulding' is but am assuming a floater frame - one of those 'L' shaped things?

I would do my utmost to talk the customer in to a normal frame so that a backing board can be added and nothing is done to the artwork at all. A very small amount around the edges would be covered by the frame's lip though, just like it would be covered if it was on paper and mounted. Then (if I got that far), especially as it's acrylic, or even if it was an oil, I'd be pushing glazing it with a spacer, and I'd be talking 'museum' glass too.

If that was out then it's got to be either screwing or glueing and if the MDF was thick I'd personally be happier with screws than adhesive, but if it really really had to be adhesive, then this is one case where I would consider silicone, because it is not encased in a sealed unit and it can be sliced through if it needs to be removed - but then that's only as long as the person removing it knows what adhesive has been used.

[blokman]

Thanks Robo, quite right about the moulding, "L" shaped stuff, though Wessex appear to be hedging their bets in the description, "moulding for canvas"!

I think the customer is pretty much set on having this type of moulding and on that basis silicone could be the answer...

[prospero]

How thick is the MDF?

If it's >=12mm then I would screw it. A 15"sq panel isn't a massive weight. 9mm and I would be a bit wary..... In any case, don't screw too near the edge. Use the thinnest screws you can find.

You might consider gluing another piece of MDF to the back to thicken it up so you can screw it firmly without risk of breaking though the surface.

It's not the ideal solution, but I don't think there is one given the way the customer wants it framed. But in any case, please don't glue it to the frame.

[Not your average framer]

an original piece of artwork....

cost him quite a bit of money.....

My concern would be to retain the original condition at all costs. I would not screw into it or glue to it either.

If it is valuable then nothing should be done which affects it's future value. It needs to be framed in a normal frame with a backing board behind it.

Time to educate the customer, I think!

[blokman]

Thanks for the suggestions, I think the painting was about £400 so not massive money in the grand scheme of things!

The panel will be 3/4" thick so screwing would probably be fine drilling a pilot hole first.

The customer is set on this type of frame and as he has another ten to bring in will go with his choice.

[Roboframer]

A couple of quotes from TFG - first one from a conservator.

"Polymer emulsions have holes in their surfaces when they dry. These microscopic holes are left by the water that was in the paint as it evaporates. Since air-born grime will get into the holes, such materials should be framed with glazing spaced in front of the art".

"Professional conservators have been unable to find a satisfactory cleaning method for acrylics"

[Roboframer]

More ......

"Removal of the top most dirt layer is perceived to be easier on a varnished painting. Unfortunately, varnishing an acrylic painting is problematic because the dried acrylic paint layer is soluble in the solvents used to make most resin solutions. Cleaning an emulsion paint with no varnish is also problematic because water may remove water-soluble additives and could make the pigment/polymer-binder interface less intimate causing colors to appear less saturated. Cleaning may also swell the thickener additives, disturbing the paint layer. Presently, there is no completely acceptable resolution to the problem of cleaning acrylic paintings".

From here http://www.si.edu/mci/english/learn_mor ... tings.html

[Graysalchemy]

Surely it is not up to us or conservators to pontificate how a piece of artwork should be framed, we can only advise but the ultimate decision is with the owner even if it goes against advice.

Very annoying I know. I have got a beautiful illustration to frame for an interior designer. It is only for a temporary exhibition but is being framed in a £30/m moulding so it's not going to be cheap but yet she doesn't want it behind or with a mount just straight to frame. It is painted in acrylic on graphic board.

What can you do?

[Roboframer]

After the advice has been given? Nothing!
(and no-one's saying these particular pieces 'should' be framed in a certain way).
But if you don't know the info to give, you can't give it.

Anyway, it's useful info IMHO and available for future searches as well as everyone else reading this thread now, if I wanted to direct info at the thread-starter only, I'd PM him.

[Graysalchemy]

Firstly I found what you had written very interesting and eye opening. My comments were no directed to you personally, but was a general observation.

NYAF was saying that it should only be framed in a traditional manner between a frame and a backing board and one of your quotes from a conservator said they should be behind glass. But if that is not what the customer wants who are we to tell them otherwise. All we can do is advise with the knowledge we have and hope that they take note.

Quick question If you were not happy in the way a customer wanted something framing on the grounds that it wasn't in the best interest of the artwork would you refuse the job. And that question is directed to a wider audience, not just Robo.

[Roboframer]

That would make for an interesting whole new topic; there are things I'd refuse to do - later, 'Rev' is on BBC2 in a mo'.

[prospero]

I would tend to lean toward glazing acrylics. They can be used in the same technique as oils and the results are often indistinguishable at first glance, especially if done on canvas. But they are completely different chemically. They are also much more versatile. They can be applied in the same way as watercolours, which technically, they are. Many acrylics are done on paper or thin card.
As Robo says, cleaning them is a nightmare. I tried it once (thinking the painting was oil). Bad move. It came out all right in the end, but I won't confess to the way I did it.

[Roboframer]

Most people that have 'nice stuff' - stuff they value, regardless of it has any £ value - it could be a child's drawing, it could be pretty much anything - are appreciative of advice and so I rarely have to refuse to do something that they insist on regardless of that advice, in fact I don't think it's ever come to it, but compromises have been made like a spacer/double frame instead of a mount/mounts.

If you can inspire confidence in your customers, by recognising instantly, problems with their initial ideas and offering instant solutions, alternatives and ideas because you know what you are faced with inside-out the moment it's slapped on the counter, you'll win 9 out of ten times.

If a customer's artwork was their very own IOW it had no National/historical heritage type of value ...... and stuff - and they were not intersted in my alternatives, I'd frame it pretty much how they wanted rather than let a competitor do it, but I'd draw some lines - I wouldn't dry mount it, (or stick it if it were 3-Dimensional) I wouldn't trim it and I'd not have it against glass.

[Not your average framer]

I agree with Robo. However if the customer still wants it done his way, I would still oblige him, take the money and say thank you. Obviously I would ask him to sign something saying that I had advised him of the problems this might cause.

I would not put my label on such a framing job. If I can't be proud of the way I had done something, then that job does not get my label on the back!

[Roboframer]

If a customer's artwork was of high value but was their very own IOW it had no National/historical heritage type of value ...... and stuff - and they were not intersted in my alternatives,

I didn't say all I meant 1st time - bits in red edited in.

[blokman]

Just an update, I eventually used pva and for peace of mind drilled a couple of pilot holes and inserted small screws for additional security.

The customer was very satisfied and returned today with another similar painting and advised me that they had actually cost over £1500 each...not the £400 I originally thought...