Keencut Laser

[strokebloke]

Does anyone know anything about the Keencut Laser mountcutter?
I went onto the Keencut website and tried to source the instruction manual PDF, but to no avail.
I assume it is no longer in production, and has been supercede3d by the Ultimat Gold & the Futura.
I have been offered the chance to buy one (a 1200, I think) and don't know whether to save up for a good S/H Ultimat, as I have originally intended to do, or to buy this one now.
I'm in no rush. I have a Logan 301, which is fine: it's only possible drawback is that it is 32'' capacity & is a bit DIY.

Thanks
Jack

[Not your average framer]

The Keencut Laser belongs to era now long gone. It uses Stanley knife type blades for both 90 degree and 45 degree cutting. It's not by accident that no other mountcutter uses that sort of blade for bevel cutting.

Rectangular blades have over time proven to be the better solution and added to this I don't think that you will be able to get any spare parts for a Laser if the need arises.

Unless it's cheap enough to throw it away when spare parts are needed, I would look for something else!

My whole workshop is equiped with secondhand equipment and I can tell you that there's plenty of good secondhand equipment out there, to suit most budgets. Have you tried asking on the wants section to see what about that fits your budget?

[strokebloke]

Thank you Mark. Valuable advice. Much appreciated.

Have you tried asking on the wants section to see ......

No I haven't. I never thought about doing that. Well worth a try.
I am quite happy to wait for an Ultimat Gold: though I did notice on the Keencut website that they can be upgraded to Futura spec.
I was rather hoping one or two might come on the market, as people moved on to the new model.
Optimism is a wonderful thing. Contrary, but ....

[Not your average framer]

I was lead to understand at the Spring fair that it will be possible to upgrade both the original Ultimat and the Ulimat Gold to the Ultimat Futura, but the cost of upgrading the original Ultimat will be more.

I have not sought clarification of this information, but if this is true and since the original Ultimats can be bought more cheaply as secondhand, it may be worth it for you to check this out and perhaps look for an original Ultimat instead of the Ultimat Gold.

[retropic]

I've been framing for six months and was taught to cut mounts on a Keencut Laser 1200. It did the job (if the job was making a hole in a bit of card) but measurements were of the "add a 1/16" on; take 1/8" off and always resulted in rubbish results.

I purchased second hand a Keencut Ultimat Gold (buy it now, eBay) for £500 for myself. It had been used half a dozen times and is brilliant (as were the people that sold it to me). It is a delight to work with and after a bit of practice I'm cutting what I consider to be excellent mounts (although I'm never complacent!).

It's the equivalent of learning to drive in a rusty Morris Marina and the being given the keys to a new Mercedes. I'd hold out and not buy a vintage bit of machinery, and be careful that anything you buy on eBay hasn't been bashed, bent etc. There are good bargains to be had, just monitor for a bit before you buy.

I understand that the upgrade to Futura is about £400. I had a go on one at the Spring Fair and it was brilliant, but as a new framer, I can't yet justify a new machine (especially since I've not yet launched commercially).

Good luck

[David McCormack]

Hi Jack,

Just downloaded the instruction book from their website from here:

http://www.keencut.com/uk/manuals.aspx

I've had trouble before downloading stuff from their website, pdf documents seem to have the html extension attached to them which you need to remove. Anyway, here is the pdf which looks like a photocopy so not that easy to read but hope it helps.

Laser Manual ENGLISH.pdf

(2.48 MiB) Downloaded 394 times

[strokebloke]

Thank you all, for your wisdom and insights.
And thank you David for the Laser PDF. I have briefly looked through it, but will do so in more detail later this evening.

I am, I think persuaded, to purchase at least an Ultimat, as per Mark's advice, or a Gold, if possible.
I have a perfectly acceptable (at the present) new Fiesta ~ a Logan 301. A bit DIY but for the purpose I bought it very adequate.
I have no desire to retrospect to a Morris Marina, rusty or otherwise. I much prefer Mercedes.
The reason for looking to upgrade from the Logan is with a view to the future.
And I saw Mary using an Ultimat Gold on Jim's instructional videos.
And Mary rated it very highly: so if its good enough for a GCF ADV , it has to be good enough for me

Once again, many thanks to each of you

Jack

[Not your average framer]

I am, I think persuaded, to purchase at least an Ultimat, as per Mark's advice, or a Gold, if possible.

My advice is to look around and see what's available secondhard, in reasonable condition, that fits your budget and then ask some of us on the forum if it's worth getting.

I haven't always had an Ultimat, but over the years, I've had at least half a dozen different mountcutters and all were purchased as secondhand, but my mountcutting has always been good.

Spending more on a mountcutter does not means it will cut better mounts, or make you any more money. The important bit is the guy using the mountcutter, the working condition of the mountcutter and how well it has been set up and adjusted.

[strokebloke]

My advice is to look around and see what's available secondhand .......

Thanks for that Mark ~ I'm certainly not confined to a particular manufacturer/model.
Simply, the Ultimat Gold is the one I have heard most about.
I understand Fletcher is a good machine, but I know nothing about them.
(I do wish Spring Fair was coming up, instead of just gone)

One thing that I have remembered I wanted to ask about: that is the double head cutter on the cutter bar, on such machines as the Ultimat.
My left side - leg/arm/hand & eye have been quite adversely affected by strokes.
I can easily apply pressure - particularly vertical pressure. What I struggle with sometimes (some days are better than others)
is control/dexterity, particularly in a horizontal direction. It requires three dimensional control.
Given that these machines have two heads and the bevel cutter is on the left, can it relatively easily be operated by the right hand?
Or is it a right hand to right (square) cutter, & left hand to left (bevel) cutter?
I have learned to adapt my stroke deficiencies over the last seven years, so long as the requirements are not 'set-in-stone', physically.

Any advice/assurance/identification of complications etc, will be very much appreciated.

Jack

[Gesso&Bole]

Jack

Both sides of the cutter are operated with the right hand if you are right handed.

Don't overlook the Fletcher 2200. I personally prefer it to the Ultimate Gold, although both are equally competent

[Jonny2morsos]

When I bought my Ultimat Gold and did the included free course at Keencut in Corby (which they no longer offer) I was taught to use both hands on the cutter for both bevel and straight cuts thus evening out the pressure.

At one time they had a demo room at their HQ in Corby with lots of mountcutters. Wonder if they ever sell off their ex demo machines. Might be worth a phone call.

[strokebloke]

Thank you Jim & John. For the info. Much appreciated
I will investigate the Fletcher 2200 further, and will also give Corby a ring during next week, re.: demo models

[retropic]

Spending more on a mountcutter does not means it will cut better mounts, or make you any more money. The important bit is the guy using the mountcutter, the working condition of the mountcutter and how well it has been set up and adjusted.

A fair point. I have found my Gold easier to set up and easier to adjust to get accurate results. I found the Laser to be very hit and miss and more prone to behaving randomly. Sometimes it would be ok, then for no reason and without any adjustments, it would give poor results. I guess the answer is to get to know your machine.

I am also left handed and with the Laser I found I was getting really bad hooks. Training myself to use the machine with my right hand seemed to reduce some of the problem. On my new machine I tend to use my left hand to cut straight cuts and right hand to do the bevel cuts. But when I'm feeling really rebellious I swap hands and the machine seems to respond well. I can't say if I'm getting fewer hooks as a result of the machine or as a result of being better at cutting. I suspect the latter.

[Not your average framer]

I see no reason why you should have to struggle learning to cut right handed, when you are naturally left handed.

You won't be the first to have asked about this problem, so it may be worth talking to Keencut to see what they say about this!

I suspect that there may be a way of dismantling and reassembled some mountcutters as left handed.

[strokebloke]

........ getting fewer hooks

What is a hook, please?

[Not your average framer]

What is a hook, please?

It's a deviation at the start of the cut, caused by the action of inserting the blade into the board.

[strokebloke]

It's a deviation at the start of the cut, caused by the action of inserting the blade into the board.

Ah. Thank you. It is something that I have not heard referred to before.
Is it a result of 'operator error'? A blunt blade? A fault with the mat cutter?
I've never noticed it on any of my mounts. Is it significantly visible?
(I'm going to dash round the house now, checking all of my window mounts )
Because I'm a beginner, I'm very slow and careful in everything I do where it concerns mount-board, glass cutting and taping to the rear of the frame once the package is in the frame.

[Not your average framer]

Hi Jack,

I can be caused by many things, but a well set up mountcutter on a dead flat surface, with no slack in the bearings on which the cutting head runs can help avoid these things happening. There are times when bad technique can contribute to this as well.

Usually framers only need worry about it, when it start happening to them. Then it's all down to determining and illiminating the cause.

[strokebloke]

Thank you Mark. Much appreciated. I'll keep my eyes open

[strokebloke]

Don't overlook the Fletcher 2200. I personally prefer it .......

I went into TawnyCraft again this morning and, in the midst of talking to Clive about renovating the Morso PU-M underpinner, he showed me a Fletcher 2100 which they've taken in, presumably in a part ex deal with a customer, which has some parts missing and the main rail head bearings require replacing. there are bolts/allen screws etc which are rusty. And it is anything but smooth in operation.
He suggested as I had done the Morso, would I have a look at the Fletcher for him? He concluded by saying that they could do with someone to renovate S/H machines for them - then they would be able to deal more in that side of the business.
So the Fletcher is being delivered to my workshop on Friday morning.
I'll sort it out - get it up to as-good-as-new state
(I may do a deal with him whereby I renovate his machines, and accumulate discounts on materials I purchase from him, rather than invoicing him and receiving payments)
I guess by the time I have finished working on the Fletcher, I'll know whether I want to make him an offer on it.

How does the 2100 rate against the 2200?
The 2200's new are about £1K
Does anyone have any suggestions what a good (renovated ) S/H 2100 might/would be worth?

TIA
Jack