FATG

[Ryan Montgomery]

Hi guys,

I know that amongst photographers there is much debate about Guilds and associations and if it's worth it or not. The qualifications awarded by these bodies are regarded by many as simply not worth the bother.

Does the same go for picture framing? Is it worth joining and becoming qualified? I had just intended to do this for fun, but it's very enjoyable and I spent WAY more on equipment than I had intended...

[Graysalchemy]

With out starting another heated debate there are plenty of discussions on here giving peoples views.

[Ricky]

With out starting another heated debate there are plenty of discussions on here giving peoples views.

You can trawl through this lot & make your own mind up.
http://theframersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8349

[kev@frames]

There isn't much to be said that hasn't already been said about the Guild.

the first five pages or so of this forum thread are also very enlightning. http://theframersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7587 gets most interesting on page 2,3 and 4.

stick with them through to the ends, they are both fairly long threads.

but similar threads exist right back to 2005 if you want more just use the search box for FATG, fine art trade guild, GCF etc.

[Roboframer]

From the thread you were directed to ........

For my membership I would get:

Regional events (they couldn't tell me how many in NI over the last year though)
Trade discounts, I view these a bit like those coupon books you used to get.
Cheaper Credit Card transactions, my bank already matches anything.
Free legal advice, could be handy.

I think many find the Credit Card deal quite attractive, but in addition to that list there's an included subscription to the Guild's magazine 'Art Business Today' and a copy of 'The Directory' - deduct the costs of those from your subscription if they are useful to you.

There is an active local branch in NI and, depending on where you are in NI, the Irish branch is also quite active. I've attended a couple of local branch meetings, the cost as a non-member was more than reasonable. but I'd be a few quid in had I been a member. I enjoyed them, deduct those few quid from the subs anyway.

I'll be attending the MLC event in Elstree and doing a 2 hr workshop that's costing me £24 - again very reasonable, but would be £12 as a member, so that again would reduce a subscription.

You can advertise for free on their website as a member, and also (I think) in their magazine.

Probably much more, including how you promote yourself after gaining the GCF qualification. Sure, you can promote the hell out of yourself anyway. I nose about other framers' websites quite a bit and often read that the qualification "separates the skilled from the semi-skilled' Think of that what you will - it doesn't particularly impress me - but it's something I couldn't say.

Depending on HOW YOU USE your membership and any qualification, you could at least break even on your subscription/test fees, but whilst doing so would also probably have learned stuff that makes you money - even if it's from a quiet whisper at a branch meeting.

It's taken some time to get the FATG on board here on the forum and now they are that has to be a good thing, as they and this forum is all we have. What impresses me is that, after still taking as much flak as they ever did before they came on board, they have stayed on board, and also have not only never bashed the forum via their own media but have also promoted the forum in many ways.

[Martin Harrold]

John - welcome back to FF and thank you for your kind words.

Yes, the Guild has taken a bit of flack on here over past years, some of it deservedly. It's a long, slow job, but gradually things are improving. There is now a much stronger focus on working with members and everyone else in our quite small trade to promote it to the consumer. Resources are very limited and the best route is to do what we can to encourage framers and galleries to promote themselves. The new mountboard logos programme is one way we will be doing that.

This coming weekend's Meet. Learn. Celebrate. is looking very promising offering a very good programme with something of interest to every gallery owner and framer attending.

After holding the AGM almost in secret for several years, the fact that it will be staged in the full public glare at 9.30 on Monday morning has to be refreshing. Anyone is free to attend and speak (or even heckle), but of course only members can vote.

Hopefully, there will be an advance copy of the hand-out for MLC attached.

John - do seek me out and perhaps we'll have time for a drink.

[Martin Harrold]

I had to consult again on the attachment, but here it is. An extensive programme over two days, with something for everyone.

[Louise Hay]

Thanks John for the fair assessment

I've never liked

'separates the skilled from the semi-skilled'

and have removed from all literature as far as I'm aware. If you find it lingering in current materials do let me know.

See you on Sunday
Louise

[Roboframer]

A few framers still use that line on their own websites, have to share this with you, the last one I saw using it went on to say "if you think a frame is just 3 bits of wood, think again"!

[Graysalchemy]

no its 3 bits of wood plus another

[kev@frames]

martin said There is now a much stronger focus on working with members and everyone else in our quite small trade to promote it to the consumer
you wouldn't think it was such a small trade if you were based in the westcountry, martin

I know the guild seems rather london and northern-centric, but in many areas of this region it (art, framing) is a significant part of the econmy.

I'm not sure about the logo scheme, although I believe its a well intentioned step towards stopping suppliers selling any old crap under the conservation label, the effect on volume users, even volumes I use as a small business, are irrelevant when I can buy identical board from the same maker, from the same supplier, at £1.20 a sheet less than the same stuff in a logo-pack. Thats £600 a palett less, in grown up numbers. Or £15,000 to £20,000 saved a year on my top three colours.

i have a colleague who thinks the logo scheme is a collusion of guild-member suppliers and the guild trying to sneak through premium price decoy marketing, but he's a cynic. But when reps troop through here one after another nodding and winking that its "the same stuff" (conservation) but I can buy it for a lot less.....
You know the score.

Interesting to see where the fatg think incentive is for volume users to buy logo-packs

I'm pleased that someone connected with the FATg knows the difference between a customer and a consumer.
There's light at the end of the tunnel?

[kev@frames]

I just thought of one good reason that kept me in the FATG right up until my greivance with them, specially relevant to someone when they are new to the business.
It seems churlish not to reiterate this one, because it might be a deal breaker for some people.

if you had a dispute over framing standards/quality with a customer, and you had done the framing job "by the book" they would back you up. eg. they were on your side as long as you had done it to standards.

in which case, that's pretty cheap "insurance", specially when you have staff.

I presume the same would still apply today? (for members)

[Martin Harrold]

Kev:

All valuable and interesting comments, and it's always important to discsuss any issues openly. There is no collusion between manufacturers and the Guild on the mountboard logos programme. We came up with a proposal to clarify the way the Guild standards are presented to framers and consumers - they liked it and decided to support it. It all came together quite quickly so presumably they saw commercial benefit in helping their customers better understand the benefits of Museum and Conservation boards.

Your purchasing arrangements are entirely a matter for you, as with any business. What the Guild logos programme means is that any public reference by any participating board manufacturer to Museum or Conservation boards can only be made in a controlled way, using the Guild registered trade mark and the copyright and licenced logos. A manufacturer which does not participate in the programme can no longer make any reference to 'Guild mountboard standards' An analogy might be 'Apellation Controle' for wine in France. I think that many people buying such wine are re-assured by the AC logo on the label - it implies a reasonable level of quality.

And most importantly, any framer or gallery using Museum or Conservation mountboard from a participating manufacturer can use the logos of that manufacturer (each manufacturers' logos have their own licence numbers for traceability) in their marketing, sales literature, websites, PR, etc, at no cost. Just contact your supplier for artwork.

[kev@frames]

And most importantly, any framer or gallery using Museum or Conservation mountboard from a participating manufacturer can use the logos of that manufacturer (each manufacturers' logos have their own licence numbers for traceability) in their marketing, sales literature, websites, PR, etc, at no cost. Just contact your supplier for artwork.

so non-members can display the FATG logo in certain circumstances, then?

for clarification:
So what you are saying is that If I ("any framer or gallery") use board from a pack with the logo on it, I can use that logo in my marketing, even though that logo includes the fine art trade guild trademark, although I am not a member of the FATG?
Or If I use the same spec board from a supplier who hold the license to the logo, I automatically have the right to use that trademark (logo) in my sales and marketing to customers and consumers by buying the board, and therefore my B2B customers can also carry forward that implied license and state (for example) mounted in conservation board to fatg standards bla bla. Because that is what they will be asking me, particularly the ones who like the mats prepacked with barcodes and GITN numbers....

So if I have read it right:
It doesn't need the logo on the packet, it just needs to be genuine board to the right spec from a licensed manufacturer. And anyone buying that board or products (mats) made from it can use the logo in connection with describing the board's conservation or museum "standard".

Or have I misunderstood?

[Martin Harrold]

There are a lot of little questions there in one big question. But, in principle, the answer is yes. Provided you use the logo of the manufacturer from which you buy the board and provided the board is as described on the logo, ie, no crafty substitution, then you can use the logos in your promotion and packaging.

Using the mountboard logos does not imply that you are a member of the Guild, but it makes it clear to consumers that you are using mountboard manufactured to the appropriate Guild standard. If that helps you sell more high quality mountboard then everyone wins.

The scheme is still evolving and we are interested that you see an opportunity here to improve your business by using the new logos - that is the object of the scheme. We would be very pleased to work alongside you or any other mountboard user as you develop labels and promotional materials to help you optimise the commercial benefits within the scheme guidelines. One area we have not yet throught fully through is what wording you might use alongside the logos, so that part will be work in progress.

[kev@frames]

spot on.
smart idea, well done, there is intelligent life at the Guild after all. Nice to see it re-emerging after all these years
suppose you'd better name names so we can give credit where it is due.

almost reaches for credit card to re-join..... then gets bitter and twisted again.....

bit of a gap with the white core acid free boards, which are not quite conservation now, but are far better than the nasty cream core neutra pH stuff, so I guess no logo required and describe them simply as white-core-acid-free.
and as for black-core "non-acidic", we won't ask

Now all we have to do is find a way of telling the customers that conservation doesn't mean recycled.....

and of course it works two ways, if you say it's conservation and a customer decides it isn't, you now can prove it is.

[Ryan Montgomery]

My head hurts.

Is there any reason that a person who isn't a member but has taken and passed the exam can't call/advertise themselves as a Guild Qualified Framer?

If I make up a frame to sell as a ready made, can I pop a Museum graded mount (provided the suppliers are a part of the scheme) into it and pop a sticker onto the front proclaiming it to be "Supplied with a Museum Quality mount as defined by the Fine Art Trade Guild"?

If these are stupid questions feel free to throw a virtual sheep at my head.