Arm Wavers

[John]

Every day it seems, we have several people walk into the shop waving their arms asking "I have a picture this size, how much will it cost to frame?". Some of them seem to resent the fact that we can not give them a price then and there, at least not without (as they see it) a major inquisition re. mount sizes, frame type, glass, etc., questions for which they usually have no answer - but they still expect us to thell them how much it will cost!

If we are foolish enough, in a moment of weakness/confusion, to mention a figure, it will come back to haunt us weeks later when they return with something four times the size, choose the most expensive moulding in the shop, and then almost threaten leagal action when the price is not as the original "quote".

Is just us, or has anyone else experienced this phenomenon, and what is the best way to deal with it?

[sarah]

These folks wind me up no end. I understand that they have maybe just decided to enquire and don't quite remember the measurements, but boy do they frustrate me

My usual response is to tell them to bring the photo/whatever in and we will be give them an exact price. Sometimes this isn't the right answer, as far as the customer is concerned, it is then that I give them a rough idea of price, usually a little on the high side.

When they are gone I let out my frustrations. At the end of the day would they go into a carpet shop and say "I want a carpet for a living room" and then be surprised when the assistant can't give a price because they don't know the size, or the quality, or the colour, or if they need delivery. Arggghhhh customers, but unfortunately we can't live without them.

[Dermot]

Have a look at this thread on the US Grumble….it’s about 4 years old and about Phone Quotes but covers the same subject….it may help...

http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultima ... 1;t=001031

[sarah]

Cheers for that Dermot. Quite funny that no matter the distance we all experience the same problems.

Have you ever experienced this sort of a call or walk in customer? How do you deal with them in Co.Wicklow?

[James Miller]

In the US, and maybe everywhere else as well, only a small percentage of consumers ever walk into a custom framing shop. Estimates here vary from 10% in rural areas, to 30% in up-scale urban areas.

That seems a wide range, but in any case, our potential market is slim -- and getting slimmer, as more "wall decor" factory-framed art is offered in all kinds of stores. Consumers who wish to avoid the process of custom framing -- all those agonizing choices -- may just buy one from stock found everywhere these days.

As a result, most consumers know less about what we do than they know about jet engines or the composition of roof shingles.

I think it's our job to educate them, and our success in business may hinge on how well we do that.

Yes, consumer ignorance is frustrating, but that's the nature of our game. I believe they ask "How much does a frame cost?" simply because they don't know of a better question with which to start up a conversation. And I am always ready with a helpful and pertinent answer, although rarely an immediate price.

[sarah]

I agree that we need to educate the customer, letting tham know that they are getting a job just for them, something custom made for their special picture.

But, how do you do that without having their eyes glaze over? At times I feel like the teacher from Charlie Brown - all the customer hears is - blah blah blah blah, £40, blah blah blah.

[SquareFrames]

Hi All,

I agree with Jim, it is our job to educate our customers, whether they be old clients or potential new ones. But its the manner in which we choose to educate our customers that in my opinion that counts. I am sure everyone is like me, eager and ready to spend a few 'extra' moments showing clients samples of work we do, samples of the quality of mount boards we use, etc., but also samples of work 'gone wrong'. I make it a habit of asking permission to keep and demonstrate work that has been done wrong by other less skilled, less caring or the 'I am only in it for any money I can get' framers. This most always does the trick. Fortunately I am not in a large city or even a large town, where the type of unframed stretched canvas decoration is not the norm, yes I keep it in stock, I have to go with the times, but thankfully, 99.9% of the work sold off my gallery walls is framed, but as needs and attitudes change, so must we, we have to adapt to our education methods. As Jim will testify I am sure, one of any framers best point of sale implements are their qualifications and knowledge, a customer knowing that you have gone to all the bother of studying, taking and passing an exam, in my experience makes them feel at ease and reassured.

As for telephone pricing, like Sarah, I would not expect to have a carpet prived without measurements, so i endeavour after chatting to have the customer bring the work in for an exact price and if they are unable to bring it in, I will go to the trouble of taking moulding, mount samples to them, and over a cuppa coffee give them an exact price, pricing it up and then once the job is in the workshop, work it out to the exact figure, telephone the customer, apologise saying, 'I am so sorry but I was a little high with my immediate quotation' No trickery or sneakiness here, but I cannot carry my computer under my arm, my wife thinks 3 computers is enough, no laptops allowed (cheapskate, but I am working on her, sort of speak) Likewise an arm waver coming into the workshop and drawing an imaginary rectangle in the air and asking "how much would a frame that size be?" is so frustrating, so I usually tell them that its anything between £25 to £525, maybe more depends on correct size, moulding, standard of mountboard and method of framing. Then I can start showing the samples of good and gone wrong work.

One thing I have stopped doing is giving email quotations, you have no way of knowing who they are from, and god forbid its from a close, unscrupulous competitor, or someone closer working from his livingroom. I learned my lesson here, after the first one, when the person came back to me, under an assumed name but foolishly using the same email address. I cant wait to find out who it actually was!! They will eventually slip up and reveal themselves, I am waiting....patiently

Steven

[John]

One thing I have stopped doing is giving email quotations, you have no way of knowing who they are from, and god forbid its from a close, unscrupulous competitor, or someone closer working from his livingroom. I learned my lesson here, after the first one, when the person came back to me, under an assumed name but foolishly using the same email address. I cant wait to find out who it actually was!! They will eventually slip up and reveal themselves, I am waiting....patiently

Steven, I don't understand this way of thinking, it is surprising coming from someone as generous as yourself in the way you share your knowledge with other framers on the forum and offer practical guidence and advice on all aspects of framing.

Am I being too open? I will hapily discuss my prices with anyone in the trade, and if they have a high enough boredom threshold, will explain to them in detail why I charge what I do.

I also have had calls which I suspect were from other framers. Probably just starting up, as I can't imagine an established framer being much interested as he already knows what he must charge in order to stay in business. So the people making such calls are in need of all the help and guidance we can give them otherwise they will end up underselling their skills and not survive. When too many framers are offering their services too cheaply it devalues the trade as a whole, making it very difficult for any of us to make a decent living.

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

Sorry for any confusion! As you say, I am willing to share my knowledge with anyone, I am also very willing to talk at length to any framer that is just starting up in business, that's why I started my Framing School, where not only do they learn to frame, but I also show pricing, stock control, paper work, etc., but what I wont do is play silly games with the 'inscrupulous' framer (and I mean just the one framer in question) who trys to extract my pricing, my framing knowledge, etc. and then pass it on to their customers at my expense. In the course of my framing school, I also teach the legal responsibilities towards the customer and their artwork, etc., I do not teach any of my students to ring up or email other framers for quotations.

I actually suspect that the framer in question is from my town, working from his livingroom, bedroom, garage / shed, or wherever, as he / she knows both mine and my wife's name, (and my wife's name isnt that easy for those that dont know her, she gets called all sorts until people get to know her, and because of her doulbe barrelled name, she always gets her full name, no shortening, and those that do know her, know that, and this framer knew that, does that make sense?). He / she also knew the type of moulding and described it, only stopping short of giving me the moulding code!
What brought this to my suspicion was when I asked 'very diplomatically and apologetically' for their identity, as I could not bring their identity to my mind, nor did I recognise the email address, but as it was scanned for and cleared of any viruses, and asking for a quotation, I opened it, and sent back the quotation. Guess what? No reply at all.
So when a similar email came through 1 week later, for completely differing sizes of work, type of moulding, and quantities, only this time signed by another person, but with the same email address, I replied that we have now got a policy of not giving out email quotations, but we will quote by letter or in person. To date I have had no reply, so I think I have nipped that in the bud.

I am sorry if it sounded as if I would not be willing to share my knowledge, far from it, I am always willing to share anything, even pricing, tips, etc., and you for one should know that, as do others on this forum. But, I'll put it like this, if another framer opened up beside you, or close to you in a make shift workshop and started emailing you for prices, would you give your pricing policies out? I suspect not.
Competition I can deal with, as do other framers, and I suspect you could to, but sneaky people trying to take my business away, by offering lower quality framing at much reduced prices, I cannot abide and dont like their atitude, if they want to get into the framing business, in a competitive manner, they should do it properly. Like you I have invested far too much over the years to get gazumped by people like this.
Only upside is, recently I have had a few pieces of this persons work in for re-framing, simply because of their lack of knowledge, and skills.

Steven

[John]

Steven, we seem to have strayed off topic a bit, but do you feel that this person is in your league, or do you think that they compete with you in the service you provide to your customers? Why waste energy fretting about him?

Most framing customers subscribe to the view that you get what you pay for, so though they may go to a competitor for cheapness, I'm sure that most would be aware that they have settled for something less than the best. And you might well find them back with you when they have something they want done well.

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

i am not really fretting about him, he doesnt bother me in any shape or form, what does bother me is his underhanded, sneaky way of going about things. I suppose thinking about it, (and I dont think about it unless there is an email for a quote) I am should be rather flattered that he picks on us to ask, I suppose he could have chosen a few others. If he was to come and ask about pricing, I would show him your programme, and give him your details so he could buy his own pricing programme.

By the way, on a completely differing subject, my last 2 students are almost ready to set up on their own, so hopefully they should be contacting you very soon. One of them is just awaiting her machinery being delivered. Contact me tomorrow (Monday) I can give you details if you wish, and you can take it from there.

Steven