Newbie saying Hello and asking for advice!

[Pharos Framing]

Having lurked in the forum for a couple of months I have finally registered...so hello to everyone. I have found the forum to be of great help so far and hope the framing veterans here will allow me some leeway when I, no doubt, ask seemingly stupid questions!

Well, I am new to framing having attended a course last November. Initially I am framing for myself and for friends and family, but am looking to maybe build up a small business in my spare time. I am cutting mouldings with a Logan F100-2 Pro saw, then trimming mitre surfaces with a mitre trimmer. Having made some adjustments I am now reasonably happy with my mitres and they seem pretty spot on when I dry fit them.

The problem I seem to be having is when I join the frame together. I am using a Logan Pro Joiner. I realise this may be the weak point in my work flow. It seems to be a bit hit and miss whether the mitres are joined tightly when inserting the v nails. I am hazarding a guess that the clamp in the joiner is not always managing to hold the corner tight and when the v nail is inserted it seems to push the joint apart. The photos attached show my latest effort...the second photo shows a reasonable mitre...the third pic shows what two of the mitres in the frame look like - i.e. with an unacceptable gap that has appeared following inserting v nails with the Logan pinner.

As there doesn't appear to be any adjustment available with the Logan Pro Joiner clamp I am looking to possibly upgfrade my underpinner to something a bit more substantial. My budget is limited to £400-£500 and I have been looking at the Cassese CS-79, Minigraf Alfa 1/M Super, Charnwood M3 Underpinner ( at DIYFraming.com )...all either new or used. Would upgrading to any of these help overcome the mitre gap problem currently experienced using the Logan pinner? How does the Charnwood pinner compare to the Cassese - it seems to be largely modelled on the Cassese?

Apologies for the long post, but any help or advice would be gratefully accepted.

[lynnbmack]

Hi

If your budget is limited and you won't be doing huge amounts of framing - the Kimberley underpinner is well worth a look - that's what I use and it is inexpensive, reliable, small to store and nothing really to go wrong with it.

[markw]

Hi Pharos Framing - welcome to the forum.

Ive never used the underpinner in your illustrations - but it doesn't look man enough for the job. I assume you have to push the V nails in by hand?

If you want to produce professional looking joints then you need to invest some money in the right equipment.

You will find loads of threads on the forum discussing the merits of various makes. With some patience you should be able to pick up a reasonably good underpinner within your budget. My advice is to buy the best you can afford, especially if you intend to make a living out of using it to make frames.

[Spit]

Hi,

I had (well still have actually, but don't use) that logan. It needed a certain knack for tight mitres, ignoring the 'use gentle clamp pressure' sticker is a good start - I always found that light clamping allowed the joint to move.

There is a more long-winded way with heavier mouldings, which is to glue & clamp and leave a couple of hours to dry before pinning.

All I can say is I'm glad I've got a proper underpinner now!

[prospero]

Not familiar with this pinner, but it looks more sophisticated than the one I have been using for 25 years. I don't have lateral clamps. (But I have very strong thumbs)

The gaps look symtomatic of insufficent pressure on the top of the joint. Looks like the wedge is lifting the two halves before going in.


Another thought.... Dunno what wedges it uses, but make sure you are using them with the sharp edge up.

[Not your average framer]

I am hazarding a guess that the clamp in the joiner is not always managing to hold the corner tight and when the v nail is inserted it seems to push the joint apart.

More than likely, the action of inserting the wedges into the back of the mitre is causing the front of the mitre to open under pressure. When I first started, I used the "Easy" framing vice which has raised fences and clamps the outside of the moulding towards the front of the frame and prevents this happening. Lion don't appear to offer the Easy framing vice anymore!

A normal (pedal operated or air powered) underpinner would solve this problem due to the pressure pad clamp, preventing this movement.

As there doesn't appear to be any adjustment available with the Logan Pro Joiner clamp I am looking to possibly upgfrade my underpinner to something a bit more substantial. My budget is limited to £400-£500 and I have been looking at the Cassese CS-79, Minigraf Alfa 1/M Super, Charnwood M3 Underpinner ( at DIYFraming.com )...all either new or used.

I had a limited budget when I bought my underpinner which is a Cassesse CS-79 and is been totally hammered for the last four and a half years. I still works like new and I get quite a good level of business with ash, oak and other hardwood frames. Both Cassesse and Alfa are top class products, as for the rest, well you get what you pay for!

Would upgrading to any of these help overcome the mitre gap problem currently experienced using the Logan pinner? How does the Charnwood pinner compare to the Cassese - it seems to be largely modelled on the Cassese?

It may look like a Cassese, but that's not what it is! Ask Lion about Lion Express they may be doing a special offer on Cassese, also try Joe or Cameron in machinery at Simons, there may be a deal somewhere.

Try and get the best you can. Good mitres are a major part of the basis of you future reputation!
Mark

[Mr Bojangles]

Hi Pharos framing

There is a Cassese CS79 underpinner on ebay and is ending in the next 3 hours.
I too am new to framing and recently purchased one of these, I'm more than happy with it at my level. It does everything that I need it to do

[osgood]

oth Cassesse and Alfa are top class products, as for the rest, well you get what you pay for!

I have had both those brands and Cassese joints are streets ahead every time! There are so many extra features in a Cassese vee nailer,that go to make great joints, but I'm not listing them again!

[Milli]

Hi

IF you are interested, I have an Alpha 1/M for sale. Excellent condition (can email you some photos). It has done very little work and I didn't have any problems with gaps. I am lookihg for £250 btu will consider sensible offers. PM me if you are interested

Regards

Milli

[Odems]

Hmm. I'm wondering if you framers all use cutting the moulds with the knives or do sawing like with a Schleicher machine?

(And welkom)

[Mary Case GCF]

Morso for me.

[John]

Morso here.

But if I were setting up again it would be a saw.

[Merlin]

Morso here.

But if I were setting up again it would be a saw.

John
Why do you say that?

[Odems]

I discussed this Morso-cutting with my customer Frame Products in Amsterdam because they only have saws and sometimes I look at some technical issues. This cutting is very clean and no dust. With sawing you must have a dust-sucking installation too. It also takes a lot of air from the pneumatic system. But they say it's not possible to cut all moulds.
The big issue with both is the clamping and holding of the moulds. The manufacturers of the machines only make a general (and far to light) pneumatic clamping-system and when you change in many moulds, you get problems. The result in sawing is also bad when clamping is not 100%. I once build a perfect clamping-system for aluminum moulds. And I know wood is a very difficult product from nature. Torque and dimension--differences can drive you crazy as also color-differences. I shall have a look for that sawing machine for posting.

Have to search at my old Pismo tomorrow....

[Pharos Framing]

Many thanks for all the advice and comments so far...I must say I'm leaning towards a Cassese at the moment. Thanks again.

[Roboframer]

I'm leaning towards a Cassese at the moment.

A bit of physio can sort that.

[Odems]

Here shows the laying of the moulds and clamping not straight but in an angle to get the best connection with the pre-formed beds.

[fineedge]

good ga...rief! Looks like a machine Airbus would use to make A380 wings or something

[Pharos Framing]

Thanks to everyone for their advice...having done some more research I have just put my order in for a new Cassese CS88 which should be arriving on Wednesday. Admittedly I have spent more than I anticipated, but thought it was better to get a decent underpinner rather than spend less on a 'halfway' machine that might need upgrading again in a couple of years.

[markw]

Thanks to everyone for their advice...having done some more research I have just put my order in for a new Cassese CS88 which should be arriving on Wednesday. Admittedly I have spent more than I anticipated, but thought it was better to get a decent underpinner rather than spend less on a 'halfway' machine that might need upgrading again in a couple of years.

A wise decision. You wont regret it.