Another Frame - Process Queries

[RobM]

Hi Everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone could pass comment on this frame - not so much for design (the client chose the moulding) - but for the process.

So, I had this watercolour painting for a client who's a friend and thought I'd try my first use of fillets to create a gap behind the glass.

1. My first question is about the quality of glass cuts. Often, I may not always get a perfect cut, and this is one such instance. So the edge would be hidden and fine in that regard, but I'm guessing you folk wouldn't accept this as your own?

2. I'd never used fillets before, and ended up gluing each strip onto the frame at the sides. Is this normal practice? Or would you expect it to be just dropped in, for ease of later removal?

3. Again, the corners leave a lot to be desired. I've asked about this previously and had some good recommendations for fillers, but this frame is one of those where the colouring is not consistent. How do you deal with this problem for frames like these? On this point, I'd mentioned a while back about a framer I know who would gently round off/soften the corners with a small mallet, and I know this was rejected by most of you, but I can't help thinking that this would be an easy solution to close those gaps in this case. Either way, would you live with these corners as they are?

4. Lastly, in spite of whatever methods I used to fit the fillet, I think it looks acceptable from the front. What do you think?

5. One last issue about there being a shadow gap is that the layers are not as closely packed, and this leaves the appearance of a slight gap between the painting and the mount? Am I worrying too much about this element?

Thank you.

[vintage frames]

Oh dear - what are you using to cut the glass?

If you havn't already, buy a professional glass cutter such as a Toyo.
Then practice for half an hour or so on some clean float off-cuts.
Dip the cutter in some White Spirit between cuts. This keeps the cutter lubricated and the spirit cleans and evaporates quickly away.

Two things you could do about the corners,
bring the staples closer together and away from the outside corner,
and for such a deep moulding, I would clamp it glued into a band clamp and leave overnight.
That would sort out your dodgy corners.

Nothing much to be done about the continuity of finish around the frame.
Maybe think about painting your own finish and rubbing back for effect.
Prospero, on here, is the man to sort you out on that one.

[NTG999]

IMO you are underpinning too close to the outside edge, don't add the third outside wedge. On 3 of your 4 corner pictures you can see the bulge caused by the outside wedge pushing the wood outwards. If clamping do it tight and I use 8 small pieces of mountboard to protect the frame - then leave overnight.
Glass cutting is my favourite subject if you want some pointers?

[RobM]

This might be where I've bypassed trying to master a basic task...I've only been using the wall cutter. I often add the spirit, but maybe I'm keeping the blades on too long. It's pretty bad, isn't it? Understood.

The wedges issue is another bad habit. I keep thinking I'm leaving adequate space on those outside ones but worry about taking them too far into the middle thinking that would worsen the gaps.

So you'd leave a frame glued overnight in the clamp before putting the staples in?

Good words, as usual, and I'm realising these look like schoolboy gaffes in hindsight.

Oh dear - what are you using to cut the glass?

If you havn't already, buy a professional glass cutter such as a Toyo.
Then practice for half an hour or so on some clean float off-cuts.
Dip the cutter in some White Spirit between cuts. This keeps the cutter lubricated and the spirit cleans and evaporates quickly away.

Two things you could do about the corners,
bring the staples closer together and away from the outside corner,
and for such a deep moulding, I would clamp it glued into a band clamp and leave overnight.
That would sort out your dodgy corners.

Nothing much to be done about the continuity of finish around the frame.
Maybe think about painting your own finish and rubbing back for effect.
Prospero, on here, is the man to sort you out on that one.

[RobM]

What bandclamp are you using? I think the one I'd used (in the few times I did) might be on a cheaper end, a B&Q one, if that's maybe lesser?

I"ll pm you with one or two questions about glass cutting, thanks!

IMO you are underpinning too close to the outside edge, don't add the third outside wedge. On 3 of your 4 corner pictures you can see the bulge caused by the outside wedge pushing the wood outwards. If clamping do it tight and I use 8 small pieces of mountboard to protect the frame - then leave overnight.
Glass cutting is my favourite subject if you want some pointers?

[pramsay13]

If you are often getting rough glass cuts you need to fix that.
If there is a bulge or a dip in the glass as in the last pic it will be a weak point so if the frame is knocked and it stresses the glass at that point it will break.
Gluing fillets in is fine although if you do use glue do it lightly so they can be removed if required. I once got a frame in to redo and the wooden fillets were so tightly glued in place that it wrecked the whole frame trying to take them out to replace the glass.
To fix the gaps in the corners just make sure you are much further away from the edge. Try starting in the middle of the moulding and then nearer the inside. I'm sure this has been discussed before.
Fillet looks fine from the front although I'm unsure why there is a fillet at all. The window mount is lifting the glass off the print, so the fillet serves no function.
I wouldn't worry too much about the gap between the print and the mount unless it looks uneven or is too wide. I think it actually looks as though by pushing the backing and mountboard against the fillet it's angling the mountboard slightly so it is away from the print. Try easing off the mountboard and backing a bit and I think you'll find that gap will close.

[Justintime]

My best tip for joining fillets/spacers like this. If it's a 5mm deep spacer buy some 3mm wedges and glue and join on the underpinner making sure to fit the wedge side against the glass not the work. Measure the inside of the frame, cut the spacer lengths 1mm shorter, if it's too tight try shaving off a little of the outside of the spacer corners, it will fit snug without needing glue.
I use the yellow Stanley band clamps. https://www.axminstertools.com/stanley- ... Country=GB

[RobM]

I need to firm up my glass-cutting game for sure.

True, it isn't a real shadow gap in the true sense, more just use of fillets to set the image back a little and use the depth of the moulding. Is this a done thing? Or is it just done where the fillets sit behind the mat board?

You're right as well, Peter: I've received stern words before about those wedges and obviously not learnt!

If you are often getting rough glass cuts you need to fix that.
If there is a bulge or a dip in the glass as in the last pic it will be a weak point so if the frame is knocked and it stresses the glass at that point it will break.
Gluing fillets in is fine although if you do use glue do it lightly so they can be removed if required. I once got a frame in to redo and the wooden fillets were so tightly glued in place that it wrecked the whole frame trying to take them out to replace the glass.
To fix the gaps in the corners just make sure you are much further away from the edge. Try starting in the middle of the moulding and then nearer the inside. I'm sure this has been discussed before.
Fillet looks fine from the front although I'm unsure why there is a fillet at all. The window mount is lifting the glass off the print, so the fillet serves no function.
I wouldn't worry too much about the gap between the print and the mount unless it looks uneven or is too wide. I think it actually looks as though by pushing the backing and mountboard against the fillet it's angling the mountboard slightly so it is away from the print. Try easing off the mountboard and backing a bit and I think you'll find that gap will close.

[RobM]

My original intention was to pin the fillets together as you describe but backed out realising I didn't have small enough wedges. That's a good point about switching it round to make sure the wedges are away from the print - a mistake I could have easily made.

A Stanley band clamp is getting ordered tonight.

My best tip for joining fillets/spacers like this. If it's a 5mm deep spacer buy some 3mm wedges and glue and join on the underpinner making sure to fit the wedge side against the glass not the work. Measure the inside of the frame, cut the spacer lengths 1mm shorter, if it's too tight try shaving off a little of the outside of the spacer corners, it will fit snug without needing glue.
I use the yellow Stanley band clamps. https://www.axminstertools.com/stanley- ... Country=GB

[RobM]

Helpful feedback, as ever. Many thanks, Everyone!

[JKX]

… it isn't a real shadow gap in the true sense, more just use of fillets to set the image back a little and use the depth of the moulding. Is this a done thing? Or is it just done where the fillets sit behind the mat board?

Neither really, the first is just unnecessary and the second you wouldn’t use fillets, you’d use another mount or strips from offcuts, from mount board or foam board. It’s not a look I like one bit.

What you have shown, most would only use for float mounted work or three dimensional objects. I would also use foam board or foam board with mountboard bonded to it, not wooden slips.

I’d not be happy with the gap in the mount, which I think is also bland and too narrow.

If you want some depth. maybe get in to deep, wrapped bevel mounts, or to achieve that set back look, choose a frame with a deep lip, so everything including the glass is set back.

[Rainbow]

Glass cutting - I use a Toyo TC17 which I'm happy with. I'm not sure what the difference is between that and a TC10 which is more expensive.

https://www.wholesaleglasscompany.co.uk ... kFZXXUYWMG

It has a barrel, designed to take glass oil. I don't use the barrel myself, I just dip the tip into a little glass oil.

Hold it as you would a pen, and at an angle. Start very slightly in from the top edge and draw it down the glass with confidence (easier said than done!) in one smooth movement, just enough to score the glass. It should make a noise like silk tearing. Then hold the bottom edge either side of the score line and break apart.

[Justintime]

Yes it is a done thing. This customer specifically requested it. We think it worked perfectly.

[vintage frames]

Cor! That looks good.
I bet your customer was pleased.

[RobM]

I'm in agreement, looks superb.

[Justintime]

Thanks, it's a nice change sometimes when the customers know exactly how they'd like it to look.

[Ultima Thule]

I have been doing a lot of these recessed mounts with the wide choice of deep rebated mouldings and my customers love them. As for any gap between mount and artwork or between mount board and fillet I use flexi points rather than arrows as these seem to keep things flat better - I also don't push down heavily when fitting them and leave some depth in the rebate so they are below the edge to lessen the strain on them that would occur if they were put in at an angle when trying to get everything fitted in to a shallow rebate moulding.

[RobM]

Actually, I thought about some of your earlier advice, John, when doing this one. The mount was already stuck to the work and supplied by the client. I was conscious of what you'd mentioned about keeping the frame and mounts at differing widths, and that isn't too apparent with this one.

I'm getting the impression they're all sorts of differing views about what works and doesn't on this forum. Not a bad thing, really.

Neither really, the first is just unnecessary and the second you wouldn’t use fillets, you’d use another mount or strips from offcuts, from mount board or foam board. It’s not a look I like one bit.

What you have shown, most would only use for float mounted work or three dimensional objects. I would also use foam board or foam board with mountboard bonded to it, not wooden slips.

I’d not be happy with the gap in the mount, which I think is also bland and too narrow.

If you want some depth. maybe get in to deep, wrapped bevel mounts, or to achieve that set back look, choose a frame with a deep lip, so everything including the glass is set back.

[RobM]

There's no better sound than that tearing silk sound! I've struggled to get it consistently on my wall-mounted cutter, so something must be a bit off. But I'm going to practice more with the Toyo to at least have an appreciation of being able to do it by hand. Thanks!

Glass cutting - I use a Toyo TC17 which I'm happy with. I'm not sure what the difference is between that and a TC10 which is more expensive.

https://www.wholesaleglasscompany.co.uk ... kFZXXUYWMG

It has a barrel, designed to take glass oil. I don't use the barrel myself, I just dip the tip into a little glass oil.

Hold it as you would a pen, and at an angle. Start very slightly in from the top edge and draw it down the glass with confidence (easier said than done!) in one smooth movement, just enough to score the glass. It should make a noise like silk tearing. Then hold the bottom edge either side of the score line and break apart.

[RobM]

I'm imagining it's a source of personal conflict in this industry - biting your tongue when not in agreement with the client's requests. Diplomacy is surely a big part of dealing with the customers in this game.

Thanks, it's a nice change sometimes when the customers know exactly how they'd like it to look.